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The Sons Of God And The Daughters Of Men


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on another forum we were discussing Genesis 6:2... Wild speculations on my part, but it seems like there is a distinction of two family trees going on here - one family tree are the descendants of Adam who was a son of God - hence "sons of God" and another line, who, rather than being a descendant of God were children of "men"... Just thinking that at one point many thought the Nephites/Lamanites were the only people who populated the Americas... at one point some also thought that Adam/Eve were the only ones populating the Earth... We now know that there were other people besides the Nephites/Lamanites living in America... we also now know that there were more people than Adam/Eve living on the earth 6,000 years ago... perhaps this account of "the sons of God saw the daughters of men..." is the account of the mixing of two family trees? That Adam and Eve's children did not have to marry one another after all, but instead got together with the indigenous population? Has anyone else read that theory anywhere? Just wild speculations, don't know why I even posted that, sorry.

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I believe the church institute manual says that the 'sons of God' were those who were children of the birthrite-kind of 'born in the covenant'-and that the 'daughters of men' were women from families who were a different religion-pagans.

Basically, members marrying non-members, so to speak.

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I believe the church institute manual says that the 'sons of God' were those who were children of the birthrite-kind of 'born in the covenant'-and that the 'daughters of men' were women from families who were a different religion-pagans.

Basically, members marrying non-members, so to speak.

Correct. :good:

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I believe the church institute manual says that the 'sons of God' were those who were children of the birthrite-kind of 'born in the covenant'-and that the 'daughters of men' were women from families who were a different religion-pagans.

Basically, members marrying non-members, so to speak.

yes, but are we given any info on who the non-members were, or where they came from? then there is something about this combination creating giants?

thinking about, I think they call it the gap theory - gap between Gen 1:1. and Gen 1:2...

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:2)

2 And the earth (had become) without form, and void...

what was on the Earth before it became void? before Adam and Eve were there?

We are given examples of new worlds being built on the ruins of older worlds:

Ether 13:9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.

combining what we know from digging bones up out of the earth, with what is written in the scriptures, seems like Adam and Even might have come to a populated world that had become spiritually void, ushering in a new era/ a new world... just one way scriptures/archaeology can be combined is all...

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yes, but are we given any info on who the non-members were, or where they came from?

The Book of Moses is quite clear that many of Adam's children "loved Satan more than God", that Satan told them to "believe it [the Gospel} not, and they believed it not."

These, then, were the men whose daughters the sons of God (Priesthood holders and covenant makers) took as wives.

Lehi

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The Book of Moses is quite clear that many of Adam's children "loved Satan more than God", that Satan told them to "believe it [the Gospel} not, and they believed it not."

These, then, were the men whose daughters the sons of God (Priesthood holders and covenant makers) took as wives.

Lehi

any particular reason that this union produced giants?

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any particular reason that this union produced giants?

Not that I'm, aware of. We know that, according to Joseph Smith. Adam was a very tall man, and that Eve was as large (for a woman, meaning she would have been shorter, but still dramatically tall compared to XIX women).

Aside from that, there is nothing in scripture or elsewhere that explains any of that. We do know, though, that Goliath of Gath, his brother, and others mentioned in the Old Testament were up to nine feet tall. This race of giants has died out, leaving little or no trace.

Lehi

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yes, our scriptures only give us an account of Adam and Eve onward, so I guess we'll never really know much about previous worlds which have passed away... save what we learn from some of the bones that we occasionally dig up out of the ground...

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:33 - 35)

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

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yes, our scriptures only give us an account of Adam and Eve onward, so I guess we'll never really know much about previous worlds which have passed away... save what we learn from some of the bones that we occasionally dig up out of the ground...

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:33 - 35)

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

I would assume these verses are talking about this earth and actually different worlds. In that way, these verses don't support the idea that 'previous worlds' happened right here on 'this earth' and as such, any bones found would be a part of the account of 'this earth' and not other worlds which have passed away.

You're interpretation is interesting though.

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any particular reason that this union produced giants?

Why assume they were physically giants? More than likely the author followed the Greek literary example of comparing great men to "giants".

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I would assume these verses are talking about this earth and actually different worlds. In that way, these verses don't support the idea that 'previous worlds' happened right here on 'this earth' and as such, any bones found would be a part of the account of 'this earth' and not other worlds which have passed away.

For those who become Gods, the celestial sphere will be right here on Earth right? but then in order to become a God, seems like they would be going through the same process - fall/atonement - for "there is no other way" Alma 38:9 - seems like there would be some sort of a cyclic thing? if celestial beings will be here on Earth, and will be going through the process again? I think there are worlds within worlds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odT4u0fyRmo

that there are more levels here than meet the eye? just wild weekend speculations ;)

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We Are the Other People

by Oberon (Otter) Zell

Their mission, of course, is to save our heathen souls by turning us on to "The Word of the Lord" -- their Bible. I guess they figger some of us just haven't heard about it yet, and we're all eagerly awaiting their joyous tidings of personal salvation through giving our rational faculties to Jesus. Every time they come around, I look forward to trying out a new riposte. Sure, it may be cruel and sadistic of me, but hey, I didn't call them up and ask them to come over; they entered at their own risk! This time should be pretty good. After letting them run off their basic rap while lovely Morning Glory serves us all hot herb tea, I innocently remark: "But none of that applies to us. We have no need for salvation because we don't have original sin. We are the Other People."

"Hunh? What?" they reply eloquently. It's clear they've never heard this one before. "Right," I say. "It's all in your Bible." And I proceed to tell them the story, using their own book for reference: (Genesis 1:26) The [Elohim] said, "Let us make humanity in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild beasts and all the reptiles that crawl upon the earth." Elohim is a plural word, including male and female, and should properly be translated "Gods" or "Pantheon." (1: 27) The Gods created humanity in the image of themselves, In the image of the Gods they created them, Male and female they created them. (1:28) The Gods blessed them, saying to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and conquer it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all living animals on the earth." Now clearly, here we are talking about the original creation of the human species: male and female. All the animals, plants, etc. have all been created in previous verses. This is before the Garden of Eden, and Yahweh is not mentioned as the creator of these people.

The next chapter talks about how Yahweh, an individual member of the Pantheon, goes about assembling his own special little botanical and zoological Garden in Eden, and making his own little man to inhabit it: (Gen 2:7) Yahweh God fashioned a man of dust from the soil. Then he breathed into his nostrils a breath of life, and thus the man became a living being. (2:

8) Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden which is in the east, and there he put the man he had fashioned. (2:9) Yahweh God caused to spring up from the soil every kind of tree, enticing to look at and good to eat, with the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden. (2:15) Yahweh God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate and take care of it. Now this next is crucial: note Yahweh's precise words: (2:16) Then Yahweh God gave the man this admonition, "You may eat indeed of all the trees in the garden. (2:17) Nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat, for on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die." Fateful words, those. We will refer back to this admonition later. Then Yahweh decides to make a woman to go with the man. Now, don't forget that the Pantheon had earlier created a whole population of people, "male and female," who are presumably doing just fine somewhere "outside the gates of Eden." But this set-up in Eden is Yahweh's own little experiment, and will unfold to its own separate destiny. (2:21) So Yahweh God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And while he slept, he took one of his ribs and enclosed it in flesh. (2:22) Yahweh God built the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man. Right. Man gives birth to woman. Sure he does. But that's the way the story is told here. (2:25) Now both of them were naked, the man and his wife, but they felt no shame in front of each other. Well, of course not! Why should they? But take careful note of those words, as they also will prove to be significant... Now this next part is where it starts to get interesting. Enter the Serpent: (Gen. 3:1) The serpent was the most subtle of all the wild beasts that Yahweh God had made. It asked the woman, "Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?" (3:2) The woman answered the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden. (3:3) "But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, 'You must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death." (3:4) Then the serpent said to the woman, "No! You will not die! (3:5) "God knows in fact that on the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil." What a remarkable statement! "Your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil." The Serpent directly contradicts Yahweh. Obviously, one of them has to be lying. Which one, do you suppose? And, if the serpent speaks true, wouldn't you wish to eat of the magic fruit? Wouldn't it be a good thing, to become "like gods, knowing good and evil"? Or is it preferable to remain in ignorance?

(Gen. 3:6) The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and pleasing to the eye, and that it was desirable for the knowledge that it could give. So she took some of its fruit and ate it. She gave some also to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. (3:7) Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves loincloths. The author makes an interesting assumption here: that if you realize you are naked you will automatically want to cover yourself. Further implications will unfold shortly...

(Gen. 3:

8) The man and his wife heard the sound of Yahweh God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from Yahweh God among the trees of the garden. (3:9) But Yahweh God called to the man. "Where are you?" he asked. (3:10) "I heard the sound of you in the garden," he replied. "I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid." (3:11) "Who told you that you were naked?" he asked. "Have you been eating of the tree I forbade you to eat?"

And so the sign of the Fall becomes modesty. Take note of this. The descendants of Adam and Eve will be distinguished throughout history from virtually all other peoples by their obsessive modesty taboos, wherein they will feel ashamed of being naked. It follows that those who feel no shame in being naked are, by definition, not carriers of this spiritual disease of original sin!

(Gen. 3:12) The man replied, "It was the woman you put with me; she gave me the fruit, and I ate it." Right. Blame the woman. What a turkey! (3:13) Then Yahweh God asked the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman replied, "The serpent tempted me and I ate. "So of course she blames the serpent. But just what did the serpent do that was so evil? Why, he called Yahweh a liar! Was he wrong? Let's see... (3:21) Yahweh God made clothes out of skins for the man and his wife, and they put them on. Out of skins? This means that Yahweh had to kill some innocent animals to pander to Adam and Eve's new obsession with modesty!

And now we come to the crux of the Fall. Yahweh had said back there in chapter (2:17), regarding the fruit of the tree of knowledge, that "on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die." The Serpent, on the other hand, had contradicted Yahweh in chapter (3:4-5): "No! You will not die! God knows in fact that on the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil." So what actually happened? Who lied and who told the truth about this remarkable fruit? The answer is given in the next verse: (3:22) Then Yahweh God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, with his knowledge of good and evil. He must not be allowed to stretch his hand out next and pick from the tree of life also, and eat some and live forever."

Get that? Yahweh himself admits that he had lied! In fact, and in Yahweh's own words, the Serpent spoke the absolute truth! And moreover, Yahweh tells the rest of the Pantheon that he intends to evict Adam (and presumably Eve as well) to keep them from gaining immortality to go with their newly-acquired divine knowledge. To prevent them, in other words, from truly becoming gods! So who, in this story, comes off as a benefactor of humanity, and who comes off as a tyrant? THE SERPENT NEVER LIED!

This story, to digress slightly, bears a remarkable resemblance to a contemporary tale from ancient Greece. In that version, the Serpent (later identified as Lucifer, the Light-Bearer) may be equated with the heroic titan Prometheus, who championed humanity against the tyranny of Zeus, who wished for people to be mere slaves of the gods. Prometheus, whose name means "forethought," gave people wisdom, intelligence, and fire stolen from Olympus. Moreover, he ordained the portions of animal sacrifice so that humans got the best parts (the meat and hides) while the portion that was burned to the gods was the bones and fat. In punishment for this defiance of his divine authority, Zeus condemned Prometheus to a terrible punishment for an immortal: to be chained to a mountain in the Caucasus, where Zeus' gryphon/eagle (actually a Lammergier) would devour his liver each day. It would grow back each night. Zeus promised to relent if Prometheus would reveal his great secret knowledge: Who would succeed Zeus as supreme god? Prometheus refused to tell, but history has revealed the answer... The interesting thing about all this is that the Greeks properly regarded Prometheus as a noble hero in his defiance of unjust tyranny. One may wonder why the Serpent is not so well regarded. On the contrary, snakes are loathed throughout Christendom. (3:23) So Yahweh God expelled him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he had been taken. (3:24) He banished the man, and in front of the garden of Eden he posted the cherubs, and the flame of a flashing sword, to guard the way to the tree of life. So that's it for the Fall. But the story of Adam and Eve doesn't end there. (Gen 4:1) The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain... (4:2) She gave birth to a second child, Abel, the brother of Cain. Now Abel became a shepherd and kept flocks, while Cain tilled the soil. (4:3) Time passed and Cain brought some of the produce of the soil as an offering for Yahweh, (4:4) while Abel, for his part, brought the first-born of his flock and some of their fat as well. Yahweh looked with favor on Abel and his offering. But he did not look with favor on Cain and his offering, and Cain was very angry and downcast. Well, why shouldn't he be? Both brothers had brought forth their first fruits as offerings, but Yahweh rejected the vegetables and only accepted the blood sacrifice. This was to set a gruesome precedent: (4:

8) Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let us go out;" and while they were in the open country, Cain set on his brother Abel and killed him.

Accursed and marked for fratricide, (4:16) Cain left the presence of Yahweh and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. We can assume that the phrase "left the presence of Yahweh" implies that Yahweh is a local deity, and not omnipresent. Now Eden, according to (Gen. 2:14-15), was situated at the source of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, apparently right where Lake Van is now, in Turkey. "East of Eden," therefore, would probably be along the shores of the Caspian Sea, right in the Indo-European heartland. Cain settled in there, among the people of Nod, and married one of the women of that country. Here, for the first time, is specifically mentioned the "other people" who are not of the lineage of Adam and Eve, i.e., the Pagans. So let's look at this story from another viewpoint: There we were, around six thousand years ago, living in our little farming communities around the Caspian Sea, in the land of Nod, when this dude with a terrible scar comes stumbling in out of the sunset. He tells us this bizarre story, about how his mother and father had been created by some god named Yahweh, and put in charge of a beautiful garden somewhere out west, and how they had gotten thrown out for disobedience after eating some of the landlord's forbidden magic fruit of enlightenment. He tells us of murdering his brother, as the god of his parents would only accept blood sacrifice, and of receiving that scar as a mark so that all would know him as a fratricide.

The poor guy is really a mess psychologically, obsessed with guilt. He is also obsessively modest, insisting on wearing clothes even in the hottest summer, and he has a hard time with our penchant for skinny-dipping in the warm inland sea. He seems to believe that he is tainted by the "sin" of his parent's disobedience; that it is in his blood, somehow, and will continue to contaminate his children and his children's children.

One of our healing women takes pity on the poor sucker, and marries him... (4:17) Cain had intercourse with his wife, and she conceived and gave birth to Enoch. He became the builder of a town, and he gave the town the name of his son Enoch. With both of their first sons not turning out very well, Adam and Eve decided to try again: (4:25) Adam had intercourse with his wife, and she gave birth to a son whom she named Seth... (4:26) A son was also born to Seth, and he named him Enosh. This man was the first to invoke the name of Yahweh. Now it doesn't mention here where Seth's wife came from. Another woman from Nod, possibly, or maybe someone from another Neolithic community downstream in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. But her folks also, cannot be of the lineage of Adam and Eve, and must also be counted among "the other people." But whatever happened to Adam? After all, way back there in chapter Gen. 2:17, warning Adam about the magic fruit of knowledge, Yahweh had told him that "on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die." So, when did Adam die? (Gen. 5:4) Adam lived for eight hundred years after the birth of Seth and he became the father of sons and daughters. (5:5) In all, Adam lived for nine hundred and thirty years; then he died. Hey, that's pretty good! Nine hundred and some odd years isn't bad for a man who's been told he's gonna die the next day!

Well, the story goes on, and maybe next time the Witlesses come to visit I'll tell more of it. But suffice it to say that those of us who are not of Semitic descent (i.e., not of the lineage of Adam and Eve) cannot share in the Original Sin that comes with that lineage. Being that the Bible is the story of that lineage, of Adam and Eve's descendants and their special relationship with their particular god, Yahweh, it follows that this is not the story of the rest of us. We may have been Cain's wife's people, or Seth's wife's people, or some other people over the hill and far away, but whichever people the rest of us are, as far as the Bible is concerned, we are the Other People, and so we are continually referred to throughout.

Later books of the Bible are filled with admonitions to the followers of Yahweh to "learn not the ways of the Pagans..." (Jer 10:2) with detailed descriptions of exactly what it is we do, such as erect standing stones and sacred poles, worship in sacred groves and practice divination and magic. And worship the sun, moon, stars and the "Queen of Heaven." "You must not behave as they do in Egypt where once you lived; you must not behave as they do in Canaan where I am taking you. You must not follow their laws." (Lev 18:3) For Yahweh, as he so clearly emphasizes, is not the god of the Pagans. We have our own lineage and our own heritage, and our tale is not told in the Bible. We were not "made" like clay figurines by a male deity out of "dust from the soil." We were born of our Mother the Earth, and have evolved over eons in Her nurturing embrace. All of us, in our many and diverse tribes, have creation myths and legends of our origins and history; some of these tales may even be actually true.

Like the descendants of Adam and Eve, many of us also have stories of great floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and other cataclysms that wiped out whole communities of our people, wherein "I alone survived to tell the tale." Nearly all of our ancestral tribes (and especially those of us who today are reclaiming our own Pagan heritage) lack that peculiar obsessive body modesty that seems to be a hallmark of the original sin alluded to in the story of the Fall. We can be naked and unashamed! Why, our Goddess even tells us, "as a sign that you are truly free, you shall be naked in your rites." Not being born into sin, we have no need of salvation, and no need of a Messiah to redeem our sinful souls.

Neither heaven nor hell is our destination in the afterlife; we have our own various arrangements with our own various deities. The Bible is not our story; we have our own stories to tell, and they are many and diverse. In a long life, you may get to hear many of them... May you live long and prosper!

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From Margaret Barker's http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/WisdomAndTheStewardshipOfKnowledge.pdf

The Book of Enoch also describes how the eternal covenant was broken by rebel angels. Genesis 6 alludes to the fallen angels, and there are traces of the story in Isaiah, as we shall see, but the Book of Enoch has the fullest account. The story is that 200 angels bound themselves in a counter-covenant and came to earth to take human wives. Then, in this state of rebellion against the Most High God, they taught their heavenly knowledge on earth. There are three accounts of this knowledge, possibly fragments of a fuller text, but even what remains gives a glimpse of how creation was corrupted. The fallen angels taught about metal working, and how to make weapons of war. They taught how to make jewellery and cosmetics, and thus encouraged fornication. They taught about roots and plants, in other words, medicine (1 Enoch 7 and 8). They taught about astrology, about ‘smiting the embryo in the womb’, and about writing (1 Enoch 69). And they abused the daughters of men. ‘The earth laid accusation against the lawless ones’, said Enoch, ‘and the souls of those who had died cried out to the gates of heaven.’ (1 Enoch 7.6; 9.10)

One version of the Ethiopic text says the fallen angels taught how to change the world, and the classical commentary says this meant changing humans into animals. The visionary texts like 1 Enoch had the curious convention of describing humans as animals - we are familiar with this in the parable of the sheep and the goats - and then describing angels as ‘men’. If the rebel angels turned men into animals, this was the Enochic way of saying that they turned angels into mortals. They gave them knowledge but deprived them of Wisdom - exactly the story of the Garden of Eden. You will recall that the Tree of Life which gave Wisdom was only forbidden to those who had already chosen the other tree. And so the fallen angels corrupted by world with ‘secular’ - or was it demonic? - knowledge, through astrology, weapons, medicine - we might perhaps say drugs - fashion and fornication, ‘writing’ - we might perhaps say the media, smiting the embryo in the womb, and the abuse of women. I will make no further comment on that list. The rebels turned angels into mortals, and probably convinced them it was a freely chosen liberation, just as the serpent in Eden had persuaded Eve.

And from http://worldviewpublications.org/outlook/archive/main.php?EDITION=060

Rabbinical Judaism emphatically stated where evil originated: “God says, ‘My children! I created the evil inclination. . . . ’”3 Nevertheless, a number of mythological explanations for the origin of evil emerged from Judaism. For example, the apocalyptic Book of Jubilees (ca. 175-140 BCE) develops the account given in Genesis 6:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. . . . There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. — Genesis 6:1-6.

Thus, the Book of Jubilees tells that, “as mankind multiplied, some of the angels were so overcome by the beauty of the daughters of men that they came down to earth, took on human form, and acquired a wife each. By so doing they polluted themselves and forfeited the spiritual quality with which God had endowed them. . . . [T]he illicit intercourse between angels and women produced a race of giants — a most destructive breed, who set about devouring everything on earth, including human beings and even one another.

“From the devastated earth the cries of the murdered rose to heaven, where they were heard by the archangels. At their request, God intervened. He sent the Flood, from which only Noah and his offspring would be saved. He had the giants fight one another until all were killed. As for the fallen angels . . . they were imprisoned beneath the hills. . . .

“ . . . [A]lthough the fallen angels are held captive inside the earth, their spirits remain[ed] active on its surface, leading Jews to transgress the purity laws, and seducing them to sacrifice to pagan gods.”

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We Are the Other People

by Oberon (Otter) Zell

...(Genesis 1:26) The [Elohim] said, "Let us make humanity in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild beasts and all the reptiles that crawl upon the earth." ... Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all living animals on the earth." Now clearly, here we are talking about the original creation of the human species: male and female. All the animals, plants, etc. have all been created in previous verses. This is before the Garden of Eden, and Yahweh is not mentioned as the creator of these people.

so there is some other (slightly different, but close) version of it. :) Thanks for sharing!

"You may eat indeed of all the trees in the garden. (2:17) Nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat, for on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die."

God did not lie, they died.

Satan did what many do - mix truth with falsehoods - yes, they gained knowledge, but they did in fact die...

And so the sign of the Fall becomes modesty. Take note of this. The descendants of Adam and Eve will be distinguished throughout history from virtually all other peoples by their obsessive modesty taboos, wherein they will feel ashamed of being naked. It follows that those who feel no shame in being naked are, by definition, not carriers of this spiritual disease of original sin!

interesting to note that Adam and Eve were not the only ones in the garden who were covered as a result of the fall... The tree of life was also covered. imo our own coverings (particularly for females) is symbolic of the tree of life being hidden from our view - but there is good reason for this... imo (just wild speculations) but as a parable - a prince cannot come to fully understand what it is to be a pauper if in the back of their mind they are always defining themselves as a prince - dress a prince in rags, but in their mind, they will always identify with being a prince if they know that was their birthright.... but if you take a prince, remove him from the castle at birth - "cover" who he is, hide where he came from - then he can get the full experience of what it means to live without royal blood in your veins... what is the point of learning/experiencing what it is really like to be a subject? the best rulers are those who are intimately familiar with their subjects...

.... just a parable... in short, there can be some good reasons to hide things / cover things for a time... tell the prince he is a prince too soon, and you would rob him of the experience of truly coming to know/respect/honor his subjects...

This means that Yahweh had to kill some innocent animals

wisdom does not come cheaply...

This story, to digress slightly, bears a remarkable resemblance to a contemporary tale from ancient Greece.

yes, interesting to see repeating themes in so many cultures. similar enough, that they all seem to stem from the same source - it's the telephone game of coarse, some things are lost/altered in the retelling of it. which came first? which is the copy and which is the original? Alma 38:9 - there is no other way, all the worlds have followed the same plan if there is no other way... so this scenario has played out for quite a long time...

Cain was very angry and downcast. Well, why shouldn't he be?

we are not given the full story in Gen... there are other books link...

from Jasher chapter one: - http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/jasher.html#CH1

16 And unto Cain and his offering the Lord did not turn, and he did not incline to it, for he had brought from the inferior fruit of the ground ...

"left the presence of Yahweh" implies that Yahweh is a local deity, and not omnipresent.

Yes - God is a person like us, walks around, could not find Adam, etc. etc.... the omnipresent part of it imo is as an artist in their painting... you say the artist is present in the painting, even if the artist is not standing right there... or like the sun, the influence of the sun's gravity/light/warmth can be felt everywhere even though the sun is a finite entity...

Now Eden, according to (Gen. 2:14-15), was situated at the source of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, apparently right where Lake Van is now, in Turkey.

... or... in Jackson County, Missouri ;)

Nine hundred and some odd years isn't bad for a man who's been told he's gonna die the next day!

a day to the Lord is ~ 1,000 years to man, so 900+ years sounds about right to me ;)

the Original Sin

of coarse no one carries the "original transgression" save Adam...

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:2)

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

the Bible is the story of that lineage, of Adam and Eve's descendants and their special relationship with their particular god, Yahweh, it follows that this is not the story of the rest of us.

I have contemplated the possibility that not only have multiple "worlds" existed on the same planet, but multiple worlds might also exist on the same planet at the same time... but as for the whole lineage thing, God's family is formed through covenants - through baptism... Jesus is the "only" begotten - the only one - the rest of us are adopted - (New Testament | Romans 8:15)the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. so it's not a matter of who gave birth to you, but rather which family you want to be a part of...

worship in sacred groves

(Old Testament | Genesis 21:33)

And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

;)

and practice divination and magic. And worship the sun, moon, stars and the "Queen of Heaven." "You must not behave as they do in Egypt where once you lived; you must not behave as they do in Canaan where I am taking you. You must not follow their laws." (Lev 18:3) For Yahweh, as he so clearly emphasizes, is not the god of the Pagans. We have our own lineage and our own heritage, and our tale is not told in the Bible. We were not "made" like clay figurines by a male deity out of "dust from the soil." We were born of our Mother the Earth, and have evolved over eons in Her nurturing embrace. All of us, in our many and diverse tribes, have creation myths and legends of our origins and history; some of these tales may even be actually true.

Like the descendants of Adam and Eve, many of us also have stories of great floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and other cataclysms that wiped out whole communities of our people, wherein "I alone survived to tell the tale." Nearly all of our ancestral tribes (and especially those of us who today are reclaiming our own Pagan heritage) lack that peculiar obsessive body modesty that seems to be a hallmark of the original sin alluded to in the story of the Fall. We can be naked and unashamed! Why, our Goddess even tells us, "as a sign that you are truly free, you shall be naked in your rites." Not being born into sin, we have no need of salvation, and no need of a Messiah to redeem our sinful souls.

Neither heaven nor hell is our destination in the afterlife; we have our own various arrangements with our own various deities. The Bible is not our story; we have our own stories to tell, and they are many and diverse. In a long life, you may get to hear many of them... May you live long and prosper!

The Jewish people did not understand about the "other people" on the other side of the world - the other sheep... we all consider ourselves to be sheep, and think everyone else in some other fold... what if we are all in the same fold after all?

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 15:17)

17 other sheep I have which are not of this fold...

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:7 - 14)

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

let us not make the same mistake the Jewish people did, in not asking about who the other sheep are...

blessings to you and yours on your journey!

...

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From Margaret Barker's http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/WisdomAndTheStewardshipOfKnowledge.pdf

They gave them knowledge but deprived them of Wisdom - exactly the story of the Garden of Eden. You will recall that the Tree of Life which gave Wisdom was only forbidden to those who had already chosen the other tree.

knowledge vs. experience, which would you like?

imo there are some experiences - and therefore some wisdom - that is impossible to gain if you are given too much knowledge prematurely...

from my previous post...

as a parable - a prince cannot come to fully understand what it is to be a pauper if in the back of their mind they are always defining themselves as a prince - dress a prince in rags, but in their mind, they will always identify with being a prince if they know that was their birthright.... but if you take a prince, remove him from the castle at birth - "cover" who he is, hide where he came from - then he can get the full experience of what it means to live without royal blood in your veins... what is the point of learning/experiencing what it is really like to be a subject? the best rulers are those who are intimately familiar with their subjects...

.... just a parable... in short, there can be some good reasons to hide things / cover things for a time... tell the prince he is a prince too soon, and you would rob him of the experience of truly coming to know/respect/honor his subjects...

the prince, if given knowledge of who he was prematurely - would be unable to gain the experience/wisdom of what it was like to truly live as a pauper as an example...

also interesting to note that Heavenly Mother has been linked with wisdom, and that She is currently 'covered' from our view...

(Old Testament | Proverbs 3:13 - 18)

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

I'm not sure that it is possible to eat from the tree of life before one has already eaten from the tree of knowledge...

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so there is some other (slightly different, but close) version of it. :) Thanks for sharing!

Just for the record, that was a humor piece and only reflects my beliefs in a very few points.

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There is another view about fallen angels. Look up nephilim.

The offspring of the union were called the Nephilim which has an uncertain meaning. The text in Genesis states that the Nephilim were mighty warriors. In Num. 13:33 it states that they were giants or men of great stature which the Greeks referenced in Homer's Iliad Read my blog here for more info... http://archaiologia.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/giants-in-the-earth-2/

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I do believe that some angels came down and cast off their first estate. They did mix with women and did produce offspring. I do believe that the flood was necessary to wipe out the bad seed. I think that these angels are being held in total darkness. I think that some other angels came down again just before Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt and did have some offspring. One of the jobs of the Jews was to wipe them out. I do believe that as the end times come we will have some more fallen angels produce addition offspring. It is the way I read prophecy. I may not be right but this works for me.

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I do believe that some angels came down and cast off their first estate. They did mix with women and did produce offspring. I do believe that the flood was necessary to wipe out the bad seed. I think that these angels are being held in total darkness. I think that some other angels came down again just before Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt and did have some offspring. One of the jobs of the Jews was to wipe them out. I do believe that as the end times come we will have some more fallen angels produce addition offspring. It is the way I read prophecy. I may not be right but this works for me.

How do angels which are ostensibly noncorporeal mate with humans?

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I do believe that some angels came down and cast off their first estate. They did mix with women and did produce offspring. I do believe that the flood was necessary to wipe out the bad seed.

If the flood "wiped out the bad seed", we have the problem of Goliath of Gath (and his brother, etc.) some 1,000 years later. It was not very effective if that was its purpose.

Lehi

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I do believe that some angels came down and cast off their first estate.

One is left to ponder how they could manage this, since "casting off their first estate" is a Priesthood function (i.e., God is in charge, not those who would cast it off). They had no power to do so.

Lehi

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How do angels which are ostensibly noncorporeal mate with humans?

I have no idea. Yet angels come to earth and eat and drink. I am sure I have met angels on the earth. A couple I suspect I saw, others remain unknown to me. I have not had them announce them self to me as an angel. But none the less they are there.

There are of course many examples of angels doing many things in the Bible. I accept all of those. It is not a stretch at all for me to believe that an angel can manifest in some kind of physical form. Of course it is not what we call an official body because they can't die to my knowledge. If an angel is a higher state than man can an angel take on the lessor state in some manner? I think so.

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If the flood "wiped out the bad seed", we have the problem of Goliath of Gath (and his brother, etc.) some 1,000 years later. It was not very effective if that was its purpose.

Lehi

As you recall the bad report from the group sent to spy on the promised land sent the Jews back into the desert for another 38 years. They came back saying:

Numbers 13:33

King James Version (KJV)

33And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

The fear of the giants was greater than the fear of the Lord. The Lord of course sent them back to the desert so that the men who came from Egypt would die off and a new generation that would fear the Lord would replace them. Could it be that the Lord knew what was in their hearts and set the giants up as a test? I am sure of it. The Lord knew that those who had knowledge of Egypt would not come to Him in the faith that He required. Yet the Jews came back after 38 years and slew the giants and possessed the land. And the last giants being taken care of before Christ came to the earth in human form. I do feel there will be another day of testing as indicated in scripture. How it will happen I don't know. But the statue of Nebuchadnezzar had miry clay at the feet. This I believe is another round of bad seed.

Daniel 2:41-43

King James Version (KJV)

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Also the reference to the days of Noah returning tells me the same thing. And it is not just the unknown aspect of the future but of the influence of fallen angels. But time will tell. We can't set our watch to prophecy but we sure can praise God when it happens.

I actually wrote a book of fiction dealing with a return of Nephilim. In the book I used genetic engineering to recreate the Nephilim from some frozen remains.

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The fear of the giants was greater than the fear of the Lord. The Lord of course sent them back to the desert so that the men who came from Egypt would die off and a new generation that would fear the Lord would replace them.

So, in essence, you're agreeing with me: that the Flood did not wipe out the giants (offspring of the "angels" and the daughters of men?

Yet, given that, from your perspective, the reason for the Flood wasd to "wipe out" the "bad seed", 'tappears it failed.

Lehi

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