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They may be better off not providing any reasoning or justification for the rules and simply say something like "We believe that God has commanded us to abstain from drugs and alcohol". Why get into explanations or justifications that can be picked at or questioned?

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They may be better off not providing any reasoning or justification for the rules and simply say something like "We believe that God has commanded us to abstain from drugs and alcohol". Why get into explanations or justifications that can be picked at or questioned?

One reason is that there are specific promises attached to the Word of Wisdom.

Another is becasue, based on those results, scientists, those archpriests of the modern world, consistently use Saints as a control group (along with Seventh-Day Adventists, and a few others who follow similar dietary practices) when studying the effects of tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine (along wiht other drugs). They've noticed that it works. The do not universally accept the Source of this wisdom, but the acknowledge it is "wisdom".

Lehi

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One reason is that there are specific promises attached to the Word of Wisdom.

What do the promises have to do with the justifications for following the rule? If you have to say something about why the law is followed why not explain the promises and not speculate on the reasons for the rule?

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And you respond with a rather flippant ....

The three cheers for undeveloped frontal lobes was not put forth as an excuse for immoral behavior, but in acknowledgment of FSY’s primary target audience, why it is written as it is, and why it is so effective in communicating truth without spin. In other words, it was in cheerful support of your post.

So join with me in a “Hip, hip, hooray! Hip, hip, hooray! Hip, hip, hooray!” for LDS teenagers who are loved and cared for by their leaders not only for who and what they are , but for what they think with!

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What do the promises have to do with the justifications for following the rule? If you have to say something about why the law is followed why not explain the promises and not speculate on the reasons for the rule?

Because the promises are the justification (at least partially) for the Word of Wisdom.

Health in our navels and marrow in our bones, the ability to run and not be weary and to walk and not faint, and to find hidden [spiritual] treasures of knowledge are all pretty impressive. In the Word of Wisdom, God expressly tells us why we have it. There is no need to speculate on it.

If avoiding alcohol helps us avoid cancer (and it does), if abstaining from tea and coffee makes us stronger (and it does), if sleeping long enough and no longer (sec 88) helps us find vigor in body and mind, then why not announce that the reason we have the legendary Mormon health and strength is because of the Word of Wisdom? Not doing so seems an affront to God, Who gave it to us for the stated purposes.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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Because the promises are the justification (at least partially) for the Word of Wisdom.

Health in our navels and marrow in our bones, the ability to run and not be weary and to walk and not faint, and to find hidden [spiritual] treasures of knowledge are all pretty impressive. In the Word of Wisdom, God expressly tells us why we have it. There is no need to speculate on it.

If avoiding alcohol helps us avoid caner (and it does), if abstaining from tea and coffee makes us stronger (and it does), if sleeping long enough and no longer (sec 88) helps us find vigor in body and mind, then why not announce that the reason we have the legendary Mormon health and strength is because of the Word of Wisdom? Not doing so seems an affront to God, Who gave it to us for the stated purposes.

Lehi

God didn't create a list of justifications for the WOW. He stated some promises. He didn't say....don't drink alcohol it will help you avoid cancer and addiction. Maybe "God" just wanted to see if people would be obedient.

Edited by sjdawg
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I don't recommend using Vanilla extract or Vanilla essence as a beverage either. ;)

Vanilla extract is a protected name according to the FDA

Sec. 169.175 Vanilla extract.

(a) Vanilla extract is the solution in aqueous ethyl alcohol of the sapid and odorous principles extractable from vanilla beans. In vanilla extract the content of ethyl alcohol is not less than 35 percent by volume and the content of vanilla constituent, as defined in 169.3©, is not less than one unit per gallon. The vanilla constituent may be extracted directly from vanilla beans or it may be added in the form of concentrated vanilla extract or concentrated vanilla flavoring or vanilla flavoring concentrated to the semisolid form called vanilla oleo-resin. Vanilla extract may contain one or more of the following optional ingredients:

(1) Glycerin.

(2) Propylene glycol.

(3) Sugar (including invert sugar).

(4) Dextrose.

(5) Corn sirup (including dried corn sirup).

(b)(1) The specified name of the food is "Vanilla extract" or "Extract of vanilla".

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God didn't create a list of justifications for the WOW. He stated some promises. He didn't say....don't drink alcohol it will help you avoid cancer and addition. Maybe "God" just wanted to see if people would be obedient.

But He did say that if we abstain from alcohol (along with the rest), we would be healthy. If we identify the specific ways we will benefit from this promise, there is no significant difference from just repeating it verbatim.

Now, I know that we avoid cancer by obeying the Word of Wisdom, but I believe that we do not avoid addition: in fact, I believe we actually get multiplication.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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But He did say that if we abstain from alcohol (along with the rest), we would be healthy. If we identify the specific ways we will benefit from this promise, there is no significant difference from just repeating it verbatim.

Now, I know that we avoid cancer by obeying the Word of Wisdom, but I believe that we do not avoid addition: in fact, I believe we actually get multiplication.

Lehi

So say that. That is enough. No need to add the "fluff"

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So say that. That is enough. No need to add the "fluff"

How, prithee, is it "fluff"? Especially when it is so widely known and respected.

It's the very reason that Saints are chosen as the control group for cancer research, for heart disease research, for a wide spectrum of research in the health fields.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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How, prithee, is it "fluff"? Especially when it is so widely known and respected.

It's the very reason that Saints are chosen as the control gorup for cnacer research, for heart disease research, for a wide spectrum of research in the health fields.

Lehi

Is it doctrinal? Is it consistent?

There are lots of conflicting theories and articles about the health benefits/downsides of occassional alcohol use?

I wouldn't use LDS members as a control group for heart disease research. (too many potluck dinners...lol)

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The three cheers for undeveloped frontal lobes was not put forth as an excuse for immoral behavior, but in acknowledgment of FSY’s primary target audience, why it is written as it is, and why it is so effective in communicating truth without spin. In other words, it was in cheerful support of your post.

So join with me in a “Hip, hip, hooray! Hip, hip, hooray! Hip, hip, hooray!” for LDS teenagers who are loved and cared for by their leaders not only for who and what they are , but for what they think with!

I concede the point. I misunderstood.

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Why draw this distinction, Jeff?

Scenario A: 1/4c (60ml) of white wine is added to a risotto at the very beginning of the simmering process. Total alcohol added: 7.2ml. After the risotto has simmered for one hour, 25% of this alochol remains. New total alcohol content: 1.8ml. Divided into six serves, the total alcohol content per serve is .3ml.

Senario B: 1t (5ml) of vanilla extract is stirred into a cup of whipping cream which is then served on top of a dessert pie. Total alcohol added: 1.75ml. Divided into six serves, the total alcohol content per serve is .29ml.

I just don't see the difference. Of course, I live in a country where we buy vanilla essence containing zero alcohol.

Vanilla extract in this nation is used in exceedingly small amounts, alcohol for cooking does not. And yes, I also use vanilla without alcohol.

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Vanilla extract in this nation is used in exceedingly small amounts, alcohol for cooking does not. And yes, I also use vanilla without alcohol.

Look, it's a very small point, Jeff, but it's also an inconsistency. I just did a quick Google search and came up with 36,000 recipes which call for 1 teaspoon of vanilla extract. You and I both consider that a small amount, but, as I demonstrated above, it results in .01ml less of alcohol in a serve than adding 1/4 cup of white wine to a risotto at the beginning of the cooking process does.

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Like caffine in chocolate, I see it as "de minimis". I would state that very few recipes allow for as much cooking of the alcohol as you may believe.

risotto would be 30mintue or a little more. According to USDA report cooking baked/simmered for 30minutes about 35% of the alcohol remains. and a white wine would be about 10% - 14% by volume, and I can't do the math from here....but it would per serving, the alcohol content would be the same or near in ml/mg as a candy bar - based on Hersey's findings

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Like caffine in chocolate, I see it as "de minimis". I would state that very few recipes allow for as much cooking of the alcohol as you may believe.

I cook a risotto about once a fortnight. This isn't about my 'belief'; it's about something I do frequently. The white wine hits the hot pan, sizzles, and then cooks down til there's no liquid left. Then the stock starts going in. At my elevation, it will be another 45-50 minutes of cooking time. I guess I see the resulting 1.8ml of alcohol as 'de minimis.' I understand that you disagree, but your disagreement can't be on the basis of actual quantity per serve.

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Most cooking does not render as far as you appear to be going. Most of the time there is plenty of alcohol left. As a foodie of sorts and now foodie "reformed" I do not necessarily see the alcohol (which itself adds little in the way of flavor, in fact I believe alcohol has no flavor) as a need so much as an accelerant which is optional, especially if you render it down to nothing.

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Jeff K.:

I never said that there was no alcohol left. What I have said it is a very small amount. 35% of 14% is less than .05%. Now take that .05% X 1/4 cup and the amount is vary small.

Chemically speaking there are certain flavor compounds that are water soluble, and certain ones that are alcohol soluble. There is a high degree of overlap, but not a complete one.

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/features/capsaicin.shtml

Again I don't see the use of alcohol in the cooking process as a violation of the WoW, at least to the extent that I evaporate it. If a member of the Church is chugging the Vanilla Extract that probably is a violation, but the small amount that gets put into ice cream isn't, or is naturally occurring as in chocolate, or a whole host of other foods.

BTW That freshly baked yeast bread that we all love still has some alcohol in it. Though the amount is miniscule. It's that whole yeast giving off CO2, and alcohol thing.

I have no problem with people avoiding alcohol in their own lives as far as possible. I do have a problem with their attempting to make their personal choice binding on me.

Edited by thesometimesaint
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I don't wear a speedo for attention I wear one for piratical purposes.

Argh! thank you so much for the image of speedo wearing pirates :shok::)

it seems rather wrongly judgmental to say a person wearing something is wearing something for one reason and one reason only.

For me there are times when absolute statements are correct and there are times when absolute statements are not correct. I think that the FSY has both.

I agree. The FtSoY manual says:

"The way you dress is a reflection of what you are on the inside. Your dress and grooming send messages about you to others and influence the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and can exercise a good influence on those around you."

Jesus says:

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,"
and
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. "

I would offer that fashion sense (or lack of it in my case) is NOT a standard.

The FtSoY manual says:

"All should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppy or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”"

Within the countless millenia of human existence I think that closely cropped hair, smooth chins and 1950s era business attire with that ridiculous cloth tied around the neck are as extreme as anything God has seen us wear. I would be absolutely comfortable in the presence of the Lord in jeans and a t-shirt with my neck unshaven. I shave and wear a tie to the temple, not for God, but so that i don't tempt my brothers and sisters to sin against me with pride or contempt.

The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

The assumption that some have that specific attire fosters specific attitudes may well be true for some people, but not for all. I am comfortable with long hair and jeans and affecting the 1950s cigarette company executives' costume seems more like a vanity to me, or by some definition, immodesty.

edit:

Many would say that youth who dress in what some see as extremes are doing so in order to belong to a particular group or ideology. I think in many cases that is true, but I see that as evidence that they would benefit by belonging to a good society. Like the Church. So long as we don't alienate them by petty concerns like arbitrarily describing one fashion as a "standard" and anything else as "extreme/strange/foreign/other-than-us".

Edited by etana
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Jeff K.:

I never said that there was no alcohol left. What I have said it is a very small amount. 35% of 14% is less than .05%. Now take that .05% X 1/4 cup and the amount is vary small.

Chemically speaking there are certain flavor compounds that are water soluble, and certain ones that are alcohol soluble. There is a high degree of overlap, but not a complete one.

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/features/capsaicin.shtml

Again I don't see the use of alcohol in the cooking process as a violation of the WoW, at least to the extent that I evaporate it. If a member of the Church is chugging the Vanilla Extract that probably is a violation, but the small amount that gets put into ice cream isn't, or is naturally occurring as in chocolate, or a whole host of other foods.

BTW That freshly baked yeast bread that we all love still has some alcohol in it. Though the amount is miniscule. It's that whole yeast giving off CO2, and alcohol thing.

I have no problem with people avoiding alcohol in their own lives as far as possible. I do have a problem with their attempting to make their personal choice binding on me.

First off, I can't make the personal choice for you. That is a somewhat disengenuous slap in the face. I cannot since I don't know you, or anything about you beyond this forum. You seem to raising the white flag and retreating to that old hypocrisy or "you can't make me" canard when no such issue exists. If anyone explains why they don't do something, do not attempt to turn it into a judgement of you, you aren't that important, and neither am I. ;)

As to the alcoholic content, it is apparently enough to have an impact on alcoholics, a brother in law was one. As such you may indeed say it matters little, or not at all, but apparently it may matter more than you think, hence an earlier post that you may or may not have read.

The idea of alcohol having an impact upon other foods is somewhat ephemeral at best. Your link refers to only hot peppers and then they don't really have much impact on the flavor itself.

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Jeff K.:

I am sorry if it came across that I was criticizing you. That was not my intent.

We all make choices. I believe what really is important is the spirit of the WoW. Not the nitpicking of the absolute letter of the law.

So a little wine used to cook with is no big deal to me. But I don't have a physical problem with alcohol. If someone has a problem with alcohol or any other food(My Granddaughter is deathly allergic to poultry, so we don't feed her any foods made with any poultry or poultry product). But personally there are few things I like better than good old fried chicken. I honestly believe and practice that if you are allergic to some food, or can't reasonably use it. DON'T EAT IT.

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I agree, in the end it is the spirit of the law which should dictate our actions. While amounts of what is acceptable will be distinct between us, I would not gainsay the spirit's direction of your life. I would merely articulate my understanding as to why the spirit dictated my decision in this way.

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