Where Is The Bom Cumorah?

[Thinking]

In the Kinderhook thread, cdowis wrote:

For the same reason that they were mistaken about the location of the BOM Hill Cumorah.

If it's not in New York where the gold plates were found, where is it?

[Anijen]

It is my opinion that Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon is likely in Central America, probably in Veracruz close to the Atlantic.

Just my opinion. I have no hard proof for this. If I am wrong it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all and I am grateful that my opinions of matters of location of the events of the Book of Mormon have nothing to do with my salvation.

If in Mesoamerica, New York or the far side of Charon, to me the the importance is the book is true and is another testimony of our Lord and Savior.

[NauvooSaint]

Who was actually the very first person to state that the Hill in NY was Hill Cumorah?

[thesometimesaint]

NauvooSaint:

I don't know, but some early Church members seemed to have believe it to be.

My personal opinion is that the BoM Cumorah is in Mesoamerica.

[HiJolly]

Who was actually the very first person to state that the Hill in NY was Hill Cumorah?

Wasn't it Parly Pratt?

I really don't see how the NY drumlin could possibly be the 'real' Cumorah.

HiJolly

[Anijen]

Oliver Cowdery was the first to signify the hill as Cumorah. I do not know who was the first to say the NY hill was the Book of Mormon's hill [Cumorah].

[Duncan]

for all anyone knows they paved it and it is now a Wal-Mart

[Mordecai]

Well, wherever the real Cumorah is, Moroni traveled for a few decades prior to arriving in N.Y. to bury the BoMormon plates. It's unlikely he traveled around in a circle to bury the plates near all the other ancient records that did not comprise the Book of Mormon. Cumorah has all the OTHER plates that were hid by Mormon, while the hill where Joseph Smith found the BoMormon only contained that one compiled record.

[Mark Beesley]

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 19:40

[Palerider]

Beesley---

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 19:40

Pahoran attempted to hammer me on using this quote, saying something to the effect that it was pretty much unreliable because it was second hand and many years after the fact and that perhaps Brigham was somewhat unreliable in his memory or some such, etc., etc.,

So beware! Pahoran may be coming after you........

[Mark Beesley]

Pahoran attempted to hammer me on using this quote, saying something to the effect that it was pretty much unreliable because it was second hand and many years after the fact and that perhaps Brigham was somewhat unreliable in his memory or some such, etc., etc.,

So beware! Pahoran may be coming after you........

Bring it on.

[BOMG]

Wasn't it Parly Pratt? I really don't see how the NY drumlin could possibly be the 'real' Cumorah. HiJolly

Why not, it fulfills all the prophecies; no other place does.

Oliver Cowdery was the first to signify the hill as Cumorah. I do not know who was the first to say the NY hill was the Book of Mormon's hill [Cumorah].

Joseph explained it to Oliver and he wrote it in the Official Church History and reiterated in the D&C.

Well, wherever the real Cumorah is, Moroni traveled for a few decades prior to arriving in N.Y. to bury the BoMormon plates. It's unlikely he traveled around in a circle to bury the plates near all the other ancient records that did not comprise the Book of Mormon. Cumorah has all the OTHER plates that were hid by Mormon, while the hill where Joseph Smith found the BoMormon only contained that one compiled record.

Of course the unfiltered truth, i.e. not to suit a preconceived model like Mesoamerica is different. Consider the facts:

a. Moroni and Mormon both knew of Nephi's prophecy - they would be destroyed.

b. Moroni and Mormon both were "at the front" of their armies and had every intention of dying with them therefore the plates had to be secured before the battle.

Moroni stayed around for many reasons Mesotheorists miss:

c. Moroni was safe staying locally among the dead - where the stench kept most away.

d. He reported that the Lamanites were at war among themselves, he therefore was close by.

e. He stayed to protect the record(s), guarding them.

f. Where did he get the additional plates to write on? A second depository as many have said.

[livy111us]

Why do I feel like I am having deja vu?

[BOMG]

Why do I feel like I am having deja vu?

I agree.

[Calm]

Why not, it fulfills all the prophecies; no other place does.

Call for references for all the prophecies and how that location fulfills them, please.

[BOMG]

Call for references for all the prophecies and how that location fulfills them, please.

1. "Jesus will be among them." Was fulfilled when Jesus visited Joseph Smith (Palmyra, NY).

2. "The power of God will be among them." Was fulfilled in Western NY. (The Burned-over District)

3. Their mother countries attacked the Gentiles "on the land and waters." (Western, NY)

4. The rocks were split both "above the ground and below." (Niagara Falls, Western, NY)

[Calm]

1. "Jesus will be among them." Was fulfilled when Jesus visited Joseph Smith (Palmyra, NY).

2. "The power of God will be among them." Was fulfilled in Western NY. (The Burned-over District)

3. Their mother countries attacked the Gentiles "on the land and waters." (Western, NY)

4. The rocks were split both "above the ground and below." (Niagara Falls, Western, NY)

Are you suggesting these are the only prophecies related to location in the BoM?

Also, would you be kind enough to indicate the specific location of these prophecies you've posted.

[BOMG]

Are you suggesting these are the only prophecies related to location in the BoM?

Also, would you be kind enough to indicate the specific location of these prophecies you've posted.

And behold this people will I establish in this land unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob and it shall be a New Jerusalem and the

POWERS OF HEAVEN

shall be in the midst

of this people

yea even

I will be in the midst

of you.

(3Ne.20.22)

And I beheld that their

MOTHERS GENTILES

were gathered together upon the WATERS

and upon the LAND

also to BATTLE against them.

(1Ne.13.17)

Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours and the earth shall shake and tremble and

the ROCKS

which are upon the face of this earth which are BOTH ABOVE

the earth AND BENEATH which ye know AT THIS TIME ARE SOLID or the more part of it is

ONE SOLID MASS SHALL BE BROKEN UP

(Hel.14.21)

http://www.niagarafrontier.com/dewater.html

[Calm]

What about:

1 Ne 13:12And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and ^awrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

How does a NY location fulfill this prophecy?

[Stargazer]

Wasn't it Parly Pratt?

I really don't see how the NY drumlin could possibly be the 'real' Cumorah.

HiJolly

Doesn't the Church own the thing? If so, they could take it apart a teaspoonful at a time and sift it for evidence. Evidence of what, exactly? I cannot imagine. And no, I don't want the contract.

This reminds me of the old story of the drunk who one night was searching intently the ground all around the sole streetlight in a neighborhood. A man approached him and asked what was up, to which the drunk informed him that he was looking for his wedding ring that he had accidently dropped. The man volunteered to help, and participated in the search. After a good while, with no result to the search, the man asked the drunk: "Are you sure you dropped it around here?" To which the drunk replied, "I'm sure I didn't, but this is only place where there's enough light to see by!"

Searching for the Hill Cumorah in New York is similar. It isn't there, but at least we know where Joseph Smith was told the plates we're buried. After Moroni had spent years dragging them around with him in his wanderings.

And even if we knew which mountain was Cumorah, we'd still have our work cut out finding the hiding place of the Nephite records. Mountains are big.

[Alla]

Well, wherever the real Cumorah is, Moroni traveled for a few decades prior to arriving in N.Y. to bury the BoMormon plates. It's unlikely he traveled around in a circle to bury the plates near all the other ancient records that did not comprise the Book of Mormon. Cumorah has all the OTHER plates that were hid by Mormon, while the hill where Joseph Smith found the BoMormon only contained that one compiled record.

So, it means that there is record somewhere that was hidden by Mormon? Is it possible that someone could find it long time ago and later it was destroyed by Spanish priests?

[BOMG]

This reminds me of the old story of the drunk who one night was searching intently the ground all around the sole

Using your analogy, the lamp represents the Light of God and yes, by looking within its range we can and have located the true Cumorah and BoM lands; just follow the trail of fulfilled prophecies.

So, it means that there is record somewhere that was hidden by Mormon? Is it possible that someone could find it long time ago and later it was destroyed by Spanish priests?

It means when the Mormon Church is no longer associated with the book, evidence will come forth. Until then, the evidence will remain hidden, like occurred with the following:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/lost-gold-of-the-dark-ages-5121-interactive

[BOMG]

What about:

How does a NY location fulfill this prophecy?

The identity of that individual may be surmised if the verse is read in context:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles who

was

were separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters and I beheld the Spirit of God that it came down and wrought upon the man and he went forth upon the many waters even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God that it wrought upon other Gentiles and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise and I beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren and they were scattered before the Gentiles and [they] were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord that it was upon the Gentiles

and

[that] they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance and I beheld that they were white and exceedingly fair and beautiful like unto my people before [that] they were slain. (1Ne.13:12-15)

Since BoM lands were hidden, it stands to reason the first explorers would not immediate find BoM lands. Which explorers traveled inland? They are the possible candidates.

[Calm]

The identity of that individual may be surmised if the verse is read in context:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles who

was

were separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters and I beheld the Spirit of God that it came down and wrought upon the man and he went forth upon the many waters even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land. 13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God that it wrought upon other Gentiles and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters. <a name="14">14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise and I beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren and they were scattered before the Gentiles and [they] were smitten. 15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord that it was upon the Gentiles

and

[that] they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance and I beheld that they were white and exceedingly fair and beautiful like unto my people before [that] they were slain. (1Ne.13:12-15)

Since BoM lands were hidden, it stands to reason the first explorers would not immediate find BoM lands. Which explorers traveled inland? They are the possible candidates.

So you are required to add to the scripture (it stands to reason) in order to make it apply to NY. BoM lands were stated to be hidden by the power of God IIRC, if God led the "man among the Gentiles" as stated here, there is no reason to assume he was could not find the 'hidden' lands with no problem. And if Columbus was that man, again what would be hidden to others could easily be revealed to him.

Also it seems a common assumption among LDS leaders that the individual being discussed is Columbus. In fact, I don't think I've heard any church leader suggest otherwise.

There are 114 hits on lds.org according to google that had 1 Ne 13:13 and Columbus, here are some below:

http://lds.org/ensig...of-god?lang=eng

Nephi 13:12 —Who Was the “Man among the Gentiles”?

Nephi saw “a man among the Gentiles” whom the “Spirit of God” inspired to sail to where the descendants of Lehi would be in the promised land. Christopher Columbus is a remarkable match for the man Nephi described. Columbus wrote: “From my first youth onward, I was a seaman and have so continued until this day. ... The Lord was well disposed to my desire, and He bestowed upon me courage and understanding ; knowledge of seafaring He gave me in abundance. ... Our Lord unlocked my mind, sent me upon the sea, and gave me fire for the deed. Those who heard of my [enterprise] called it foolish, mocked me, and laughed. But who can doubt but that the Holy Ghost inspired me ?” (from Jacob Wassermann, Columbus, Don Quixote of the Seas, 19–20, 46; italics added; cited in McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon , 1:91).

http://seminary.lds....02-1ne-1-10.asp

In his own journal and in letters to others, Columbus wrote of how inspired he felt on his journey to the Americas. He said: “Our Lord unlocked my mind, sent me upon the sea, and gave me fire for the deed. … Who can doubt but that the Holy Ghost inspired me?” (quoted in Mark E. Petersen, The Great Prologue [1975], 26).

http://lds.org/new-e...happen?lang=eng

Christopher Columbus’s personal study of the Bible greatly increased the influence of the Holy Ghost in his life. Two millennia before Columbus, Nephi prophesied: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land” (1 Ne. 13:12). President Gordon B. Hinckley said: “We interpret that to refer to Columbus. It is interesting to note that the Spirit of God wrought upon him.” 10 Columbus himself declared: “With a hand that could be felt, the Lord opened my mind to the fact that it would be possible to sail and he opened my will to desire to accomplish the project. … This was the fire that burned within me. … Who can doubt that this fire was not merely mine, but also of the Holy Spirit … urging me to press forward?” 11President George Q. Cannon (1827–1901), a counselor in the First Presidency, said: “Columbus was inspired to penetrate the ocean and discover this Western continent for the set time for its discovery had come; and the consequences which God desired to follow its discovery have taken place. … We believe it was a preparatory work for the establishment of the Kingdom of God.

<a name="17" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.22em; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 51, 102); ">

“This Church and Kingdom could not have been established on the earth if [Columbus’s] work had not been performed.” 12

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=b9d284d4a0a0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

[urroner]

The identity of that individual may be surmised if the verse is read in context:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles who

was

were separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters and I beheld the Spirit of God that it came down and wrought upon the man and he went forth upon the many waters even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land. 13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God that it wrought upon other Gentiles and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters. <a name="14">14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise and I beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren and they were scattered before the Gentiles and [they] were smitten. 15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord that it was upon the Gentiles

and

[that] they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance and I beheld that they were white and exceedingly fair and beautiful like unto my people before [that] they were slain. (1Ne.13:12-15)

Since BoM lands were hidden, it stands to reason the first explorers would not immediate find BoM lands. Which explorers traveled inland? They are the possible candidates.

Could you please expound a little bit more on what you are trying to say here?