The Uselessness Of Personal Revelation

[jo1952]

No, it is the best course available to you at the time. If you are a drunk on skid row, and God confirms that the Salvation Army is the "best" course for you (at the time) because it leads you to Christ- it is hardly a lie.

But I appreciate you bringing that up- the key is the "best course at the time" to further your progression. There was one here who told a story about a friend of his who was LDS and felt strongly prompted that he should join the Presbyterian church. He did. He climbed quickly into the hierarchy and was instrumental in several conferences which resulted in greater Christian Unity.

Much later in life, he again felt a strong impression to re-join the LDS church, which he did.

He was certain that each choice was a revelation from the Lord, and that for that period he was "supposed" to be in the Presbyterian Church.

True or not, I think the story is very instructive and teaches a true principle.

Indeed! Heavenly Father uses whatever circumstances we are in to assist not only each of us personally, but also for the greater good. I doubt many will understand this, but even an atheist who claims to not believe in a God, believes in a non-God world which is still a recognition of his own existence even though he does not understand that God is the cause of his being here. That individual is still struggling and still learning, even though we may see his experiencing of life in the flesh as limited. God uses whatever choices we make turn out in the end to accomplish His purposes for us. Whatever our current understanding about God is is all that we are prepared and able to comprehend. God's purpose is to bring about the eternal life of mankind. I have faith that His purpose will be fulfilled. Where we are in our personal journey right now is not where we are going to be at the "end" of our journey, as our journey is eternal. We are merely being limited in our progression by our circumstances in our physical body. Yet the portion of "time" we spend in our temporal body is a necessary part of our eternal progression.

jo

[Hamba Tuhan]

It seems that at the end of the day you have no sure source but you have to trust in the Lord (have faith).

Then, of what use is "personal revelation"?

That's right. And it is with that trust (faith) that one can then act upon what s/he thinks may be revelation. If it works, it was. If it doesn't, it wasn't. Over time and in a very practical way, we come to recognise more and more the actual voice of God as opposed to our own thoughts and feelings and even Satan's temptations. It's a beautiful process based upon effective pedagogic principles.

[mfbukowski]

Indeed! Heavenly Father uses whatever circumstances we are in to assist not only each of us personally, but also for the greater good. I doubt many will understand this, but even an atheist who claims to not believe in a God, believes in a non-God world which is still a recognition of his own existence even though he does not understand that God is the cause of his being here. That individual is still struggling and still learning, even though we may see his experiencing of life in the flesh as limited. God uses whatever choices we make turn out in the end to accomplish His purposes for us. Whatever our current understanding about God is is all that we are prepared and able to comprehend. God's purpose is to bring about the eternal life of mankind. I have faith that His purpose will be fulfilled. Where we are in our personal journey right now is not where we are going to be at the "end" of our journey, as our journey is eternal. We are merely being limited in our progression by our circumstances in our physical body. Yet the portion of "time" we spend in our temporal body is a necessary part of our eternal progression.

jo

Good point- I know it is a true principle because I used to be an atheist myself. I also firmly believe that if I had not been an atheist, I would not today be a member of the Church.

I needed to learn what a few on this board need to learn- that objective "facts" have nothing to do with religion. The OP itself presumes that the goal of revelation is factual/objective truth, but it has nothing to do with that.

[Hamba Tuhan]

How would you distinguish between a good idea that came from you and a good idea that did come from God?

One quick example: If an angel appears to me during the night and tells me about an ancient record buried in a hill nearby, and, when I look, there's no ancient record, the idea came from me and specifically from my imagination. If an angel appears to me during the night and tells me about an ancient record buried in a hill nearby, and, when I look, the record is there, then the idea clearly didn't originate with me; consequently, it must have come from God.

I've had parallel experiences to this one literally scores, possibly hundreds, of times.

[shalamabobbi]

How would you distinguish between a good idea that came from you and a good idea that did come from God?

I think the point is the concept that there is an idea that is "good".

The conscience that leads alcoholics in AA (as an example) to abandon the consumption of alcohol is what I think of as significant revelation.

The conviction of sin, the idea of repentance. Making restoration for something stolen.

Confessing, apologizing and asking for forgiveness. Learning to forgive others as well as oneself.

These things do not come from the pages of a physics textbook (not putting down physics of course, love the subject).

[jo1952]

We know that Satan can deceive us into thinking something was a revelation when it wasn't.

We know God will not command us about everything we have to do.

We know we will make mistakes.

If we receive a revelation and it clearly goes against the scriptures then it isn't from God.

Not everything is in the scriptures (what job you should take, what to make legal or illegal, etc).

Now, let's say you pray and you think you received a revelation. If it clearly goes against the scriptures then you know it isn't from God. However, you could be mistaken when interpreting the scriptures or when interpreting the revelation because of Satan. Satan may be the one deceiving you into thinking it is a revelation from God when it isn't in the first place. You know also that it could be just your mind since God will NOT admonish you in everything you have to do or should do. It seems that at the end of the day you have no sure source but you have to trust in the Lord (have faith).

Then, of what use is "personal revelation"?

After reading all of the responses and seeing your remarks about how we haven't gotten to the point of your OP, I am pretty much at a loss on what to say. But I'm going to give it a shot.

1John 5:1-15 (emphasis is mine)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Inasmuch as it is ONLY through the witness of the Holy Ghost that we can even know that Jesus is our Lord while we are on the earth, and it is through the Holy Ghost that we are led to all Truth, I would say that personal revelation has a great deal of usefulness. This is the source of communicating with each of us personally which has been established by Heavenly Father. We now walk in faith; not in proof.

Satan knows who Christ is. When confronted by Christ, satan could not deny Him. We have been taught HOW to tell if a personal visitation or vision is of God or not. As for our own thoughts? We will need to look at the fruit of following the promptings and revelations we have received. Since the Holy Ghost is the ONLY Being of the Godhead who can witness to us and teach our spirits about the Kingdom of God, which is done Spirit to spirit, it behooves us to learn discernment of the Holy Ghost. We can only know of spiritual things through our spirit. The physical world cannot teach our spirit.

The Holy Ghost is available to all of mankind when someone is searching for God, regardless of who you are, whether or not you are a religious person, or what religion you may hold to. It is our faith and desire to believe which brings the witness of the Holy Ghost. The LDS Church does not have exclusivity to the Holy Ghost. Yes, we have the Power and Authority of the Priesthood to "receive" the Holy Ghost through the ordinance of laying on of hands by those with the authority to do so. But the Holy Ghost will lead every man to all Truth, if man is willing to allow Him to even if he is not LDS. Thus, the purpose of the Temples is to ensure that all necessary ordinances are performed for ALL of mankind; not just for those who are LDS.

Regards,

jo

[jo1952]

Good point- I know it is a true principle because I used to be an atheist myself. I also firmly believe that if I had not been an atheist, I would not today be a member of the Church.

I needed to learn what a few on this board need to learn- that objective "facts" have nothing to do with religion. The OP itself presumes that the goal of revelation is factual/objective truth, but it has nothing to do with that.

Amen!!

jo

[elguanteloko]

Good point- I know it is a true principle because I used to be an atheist myself. I also firmly believe that if I had not been an atheist, I would not today be a member of the Church.

I needed to learn what a few on this board need to learn- that objective "facts" have nothing to do with religion. The OP itself presumes that the goal of revelation is factual/objective truth, but it has nothing to do with that.

The existence of a corporeal God is proposed by Mormons to be a fact about reality. That God could have or could have not given information to someone. How are those very elementary proposition for Mormons not facts?

[Libs]

How would you distinguish between a good idea that came from you and a good idea that did come from God?

Because, my spiritual experiences often came from "ideas" I had never had. Another poster mentioned coming from an atheistic background. That's pretty much where I was, when God came back into my life. There was just no doubt in my mind, where the ideas (accompanied by strong feelings) came from.

El, I think it's good that you're asking questions. I guess I have probably been across the whole gambit of thoughts and ideas, about God (if he exists and if he does, what is our relationship to him, and how do we "know" any of this, etc. etc.). You are right, that it does, basically, come down to faith, but I believe it does help build a personal relationship with God, to allow that faith to guide you in recognizing personal revelation. I would call it the Holy Spirit working in you. Trust it. Sometimes, we can question so much that we miss what is right in front of us. (I am talking to myself, probably, even more than you! )

[elguanteloko]

I hate to tell you, but, you don't have a clue. It was revealed to me that my wife was terminally ill. It was a wide awake, driving down the freeway, revelation. Vivid, like a dream but I was not sleeping, I was doing 70mph. By the time I got to work I was crying like a baby. It was so real, I was at my wife's funeral.

I freaked out for a week or so, then I started pushing to get medical tests. We thought she had pancrease cancer, we thought she had liver disease, turns out she had colon cancer. The words of the doctors were "It's a miracle we caught this so soon. It's stage 1 cancer she doesn't need chemo therapy."

Personal revelation saved my wife's life, for how long I don't know, but I hope it's long enough to get sealed.

Wow. That sounds like quite an experience. Good for you guys, seriously.

I don't want to touch on such a sensitive case so I'll use another one.

Let's say I receive a revelation that my son is going to have a car accident and I, somehow, manage to save him thanks to the revelation. My question to you is, could Satan have worked a miracle and given me this information for some purpose I know not of just yet? We know from scriptures that Satan will work miracles in the last days. Do you accept this?

[elguanteloko]

Because, my spiritual experiences often came from "ideas" I had never had. Another poster mentioned coming from an atheistic background. That's pretty much where I was, when God came back into my life. There was just no doubt in my mind, where the ideas (accompanied by strong feelings) came from.

So, basically you didn't doubt where the ideas came from and that's why they came from where you didn't doubt the ideas came from, correct?

[citizen28]

I needed to learn what a few on this board need to learn- that objective "facts" have nothing to do with religion. The OP itself presumes that the goal of revelation is factual/objective truth, but it has nothing to do with that.

What of the LDS truth claims?

[elguanteloko]

One quick example: If an angel appears to me during the night and tells me about an ancient record buried in a hill nearby, and, when I look, there's no ancient record, the idea came from me and specifically from my imagination. If an angel appears to me during the night and tells me about an ancient record buried in a hill nearby, and, when I look, the record is there, then the idea clearly didn't originate with me; consequently, it must have come from God.

I've had parallel experiences to this one literally scores, possibly hundreds, of times.

MANY people claim stuff like this. Why should someone take you seriously, Hamba?

[elguanteloko]

Some people are guided to find their car keys some of the time. Some people do find food, or a job, or have a loved one cured from cancer some of the time. None of these examples are true for all people all of the time.

Better than by mere chance? Can you show that that is the case? I doubt you can, so, why should an outsider take your miraculous claims seriously?

[citizen28]

citizen28: There are plenty of Saints on here who are quite capable of speaking for themselves. Some of us already did, in this thread.

If you were asked by your church leaders to do something that offended your sensibilities in every way, how would you determine whether or not it was of God?

[Mordecai]

From my experience, personal revelation is quite relevant. In itself, it's faith promoting. After all, it's quite miraculous when under no other circumstances do you have "pure intelligence flowing through you," except when you've been faithful, have prayed, have humbled yourself and taken some time to listen. It's like the taste of salt. If you've never tasted salt before, sure, my having tasted salt is irrelevant, no matter how much I try to explain. But the experience of receiving personal revelation, when it's clear, distinct and represents an epiphany, is about as relevant as it gets.

[Mordecai]

MANY people claim stuff like this. Why should someone take you seriously, Hamba?

Why should anyone take your question seriously? Maybe you don't care about the answer in the slightest? Why should we even respond to you? Why should we not think that your goal is to just troll? How do you respond to such rude questions? Because that's all that is. A rude question.

[elguanteloko]

Why should anyone take your question seriously?

Part of the beauty of thinking is that you don't have to.

Maybe you don't care about the answer in the slightest?

I can't demonstrate that I genuinely care other than to give my word that I truly do care. I seriously do.

Why should we even respond to you?

You don't have to. No one has.

Why should we not think that your goal is to just troll?

It isn't.

How do you respond to such rude questions? Because that's all that is. A rude question.

Miraculous claims are made all the time and all I'm asking is, why should someone take yours seriously? I don't get how that is a rude question, brother.

[Mordecai]

Part of the beauty of thinking is that you don't have to.

I don't need your questions to think. Really, I don't.

I can't demonstrate that I genuinely care other than to give my word that I truly do care. I seriously do.

How is that better than my word that I've had personal revelation? It's not.

Miraculous claims are made all the time and all I'm asking is, why should someone take yours seriously? I don't get how that is a rude question, brother.

It's a rude question, because the implication is that you are dismissive. You seem to want people to believe that you care about the answer to your question. People can be dismissive of that, too. How would you like that? How about if nothing you say matters, because no one is able to believe what other people say?

[Libs]

So, basically you didn't doubt where the ideas came from and that's why they came from where you didn't doubt the ideas came from, correct?

LOL....uummmm, huh? I had to read that, again, very slowly.

I didn't doubt, at first, and then I did, for awhile...but, now, I don't.

Are you asking how we can prove it to someone else, or how we know, ourselves, that it is from God? I don't think we can prove subjective experiences to others. They pretty much have to take our word for it...or not.

[Stargazer]

Go to any testimony meeting. People say they received revelations and "spiritual hints" every month. I find it disturbing that people think the Spirit told them where their car keys were when they prayed but God doesn't do the same with the prayers of starving children or of mothers asking God to deliver their children from cancer.

The point is that there doesn't seem to be much of a point to personal revelation.

Perhaps in your experience there isn't. I am no judge of that.

However, at the risk of personalizing it, let me give a superficial telling of a couple of personal revelations I received. I shall not give details, as I hold them too sacred to recount in this forum, but the gist of the matter is that when I received my patriarchal blessing a certain thing was promised to me, an item of knowledge, sometime in the future. A few years later, when I was on my mission I decided to claim this thing which had been promised to me, and I asked Father in many prayers over the course of a number of nights and days to grant it to me. At length I received what I asked for. It did not come in quite the manner I expected, nor was it quite in content what I expected, but upon reflection it was exactly what I needed. So I went on from there.

I wasn't asking for some kind of doctrinal knowledge beyond that with which we have been blessed, but what my blessing promised, which had to do with me and my life and mission in this life. No need to consult scriptures to make sure I wasn't deceived; in fact it was completely congruent with every gospel truth I had ever learned, and quite personalized.

Many years after my mission I received another but very unexpected personal revelation, kind of "over the transom", as it were, as I had not asked for anything, and it told me one particular thing would come to pass, and in the course of time it did. Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that this event that came to pass was part and parcel of the first revelation I mentioned.

This second revelation, combined with the one I mentioned above, gave me an overwhelming sense that God knows who I am, and has specific genuine expectations of me. And this is just one more point to these two experiences, which remain most precious to me.

Like I said, perhaps in your experience personal revelation hasn't had much of a point, but for me personal revelation has a definite point.

And thanks, elguanteloko, for the bringing this subject up. An unexpected opportunity to reflect upon these things and to express my gratitude to the Lord for all that He has done for me.

[Mordecai]

I shall not give details, as I hold them too sacred to recount in this forum... At length I received what I asked for. It did not come in quite the manner I expected, nor was it quite in content what I expected, but upon reflection it was exactly what I needed... it was completely congruent with every gospel truth I had ever learned, and quite personalized... Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that this event that came to pass was part and parcel of the first revelation I mentioned... This second revelation, combined with the one I mentioned above, gave me an overwhelming sense that God knows who I am, and has specific genuine expectations of me.

I totally believe you, as all of this sounds quite familiar. My experiences have been of tremendous worth and the most important and faith promoting ones, I will not share with people.

[Hamba Tuhan]

MANY people claim stuff like this. Why should someone take you seriously, Hamba?

They shouldn't. I wouldn't...if I hadn't experienced it for myself. The specific question I was responding to was how I could know if something was from God or not. I have a perfectly reasonable method for determining if something comes from God or not. The only way that that you could ever believe me or take me seriously, though, would be to experience it for yourself. Just because you haven't yet doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[elguanteloko]

They shouldn't. I wouldn't...if I hadn't experienced it for myself. The specific question I was responding to was how I could know if something was from God or not. I have a perfectly reasonable method for determining if something comes from God or not. The only way that that you could ever believe me or take me seriously, though, would be to experience it for yourself. Just because you haven't yet doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I didn't phrase that correctly. Let me try again. How do YOU know those "revelations" are from God or are revelations at all?

[elguanteloko]

I don't need your questions to think. Really, I don't.

Of course you don't need them to think but from all the things you can think of I could probably provide a new way of looking at something you haven't thought of before. Probably...

How is that better than my word that I've had personal revelation? It's not.

Come on, Mordecai. You really don't see the difference? It's the same type of difference there is between me claiming I'm looking at my computer screen and claiming I won the lottery because God said it was part of his plan (let's say I actually won the lottery). One of those two claims goes beyond an explanation that occurs within me and goes to explain the world itself. Bid difference.

It's a rude question, because the implication is that you are dismissive. You seem to want people to believe that you care about the answer to your question. People can be dismissive of that, too. How would you like that? How about if nothing you say matters, because no one is able to believe what other people say?

Believe what you want, then.