Word Of Wisdom

[inquiringmind]

God isn't going to hold responsible those that didn't follow the WoW if they never covenanted not to follow it.

I know this may be a stupid question, but what does "covenanting to follow the word of wisdom" mean?

What if you've tried to quite smoking, and even asked God for help?

Is that "covenanting"?

Or is "covenanting" a more formal thing (perhaps done in a temple)?

[CV75]

I know this may be a stupid question, but what does "covenanting to follow the word of wisdom" mean?

What if you've tried to quite smoking, and even asked God for help?

Is that "covenanting"?

Or is "covenanting" a more formal thing (perhaps done in a temple)?

For a good summary of covenant and making covenants, see http://lds.org/study/topics/covenant?lang=eng.

I would say that covenanting entails more than trying something worthwhile and asking for help.

[Alla]

I know this may be a stupid question, but what does "covenanting to follow the word of wisdom" mean?

When you promise God that you will keep Word of Wisdom you make covenant with God.

When we are baptized in Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS we make a promise that we will keep commandments. One of them is keeping WOW.

People who didn't make any covenants with God to keep WOW do not break thew law.

What if you've tried to quite smoking' date=' and even asked God for help?[/quote']

This is not a covenant. Covenant is when you promise something to God and God promises something to you. Both have to keep promise.

Is that "covenanting"?

No. This just asking for help.

Or is "covenanting" a more formal thing (perhaps done in a temple)?

Not at all. If you are not a member of the Church, if you are on your own you may ask God to guide you all the time or bless you with something special, in return you make a covenant that you will never lie to anybody, or you will never watch porno. You made your covenant.

But when you make covenants with God in Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS you promise to God to do ALL HE wants you to do. In return He will bless you with EVERYTHING HE HAS.

[inquiringmind]

If you went to an LDS sacrament meeting, and you were told it was ok for you to have the bread and water (and you did have it), did you covenant to keep the word of wisdom by doing that?

[Nathair/|\]

If you went to an LDS sacrament meeting, and you were told it was ok for you to have the bread and water (and you did have it), did you covenant to keep the word of wisdom by doing that?

The covenant is made when you are baptized. If you haven't been baptized LDS, the sacrament has only those covenantal factors you have made privately with the Savior. If you have been baptized LDS, the sacrament renews those covenants.

[inquiringmind]

The covenant is made when you are baptized. If you haven't been baptized LDS, the sacrament has only those covenantal factors you have made privately with the Savior. If you have been baptized LDS, the sacrament renews those covenants.

Thank you.

[blackstrap]

Lawyers have a basic rule.Never ask a question unless you already know the answer to it. I'm sure it is just me,but I get the feeling that some here hold to that rule religiously.

[inquiringmind]

...if you are on your own you may ask God to guide you all the time or bless you with something special, in return you make a covenant that you will never lie to anybody, or you will never watch porno. You made your covenant.

But when you make covenants with God in Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS you promise to God to do ALL HE wants you to do. In return He will bless you with EVERYTHING HE HAS

I think Brigham Young said that the atonement didn't cover broken covenants, and that we had to pay for the sin of broken covenants ourselves.

Was he talking about covenants made with God in the LDS Church, or even our own personal covenants?

[mercyngrace]

Inquiring Mind,

I agree with all those who have differentiated between those pleas for help we utter to God and the formal two-way promises we make with Him. Also, I'd like to point out that we are all covenant breakers to some degree because we are all imperfect. Even the best among us fails to ALWAYS mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort (Mosiah 18:8-10). The atonement covers those sins of omission as well as sins of commission. There is often, however, a price to be paid in our own suffering for broken covenants. The adulterer lives with the mistrust of his spouse. The abuser is left to wonder whether his children love him or merely fear him. Though the atonement can heal those self-inflicted wounds, we often still spend some time in hellish anguish with a bright recollection of our own guilt.

Those moments in the abyss are intended to be rehabilitative not punitive. According to D&C 132, even covenant breakers can receive their exaltation provided they do not commit the unpardonable sin. "...and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection..." Have faith. Do what you can do. Let Christ do the rest.

MnG

PS Brigham Young also said that God would save all those who want to be saved.

[Wendy]

I think Brigham Young said that the atonement didn't cover broken covenants, and that we had to pay for the sin of broken covenants ourselves.

Was he talking about covenants made with God in the LDS Church, or even our own personal covenants?

If Brigham Young indeed did say that, I assume what he meant is that when we fail to repent of a broken covenant, then the atonement does not cover it.

[FrozenChosen]

Just to be a bit critical, I don't think it is possible for mere mortals to dictate the terms of a covenant to our Heavenly Father. Since He is the author of covenants, not us, I really think we are presuming too much by saying that there is a covenant associated with the Word of Wisdom. If you look at the text of the Word of Wisdom, it was at first not even given as a commandment, so that members would have a grace period to adjust to its requirements without being under condemnation. Later it was given added weight and became a commandment. But I still don't think that there is a specific covenant associated with it, at least not in the scriptures. I know I have been blessed for abiding by it, but still I don't think there's a covenant attached specifically to it.

[inquiringmind]

Just to be a bit critical, I don't think it is possible for mere mortals to dictate the terms of a covenant to our Heavenly Father. Since He is the author of covenants, not us, I really think we are presuming too much by saying that there is a covenant associated with the Word of Wisdom. If you look at the text of the Word of Wisdom, it was at first not even given as a commandment, so that members would have a grace period to adjust to its requirements without being under condemnation. Later it was given added weight and became a commandment. But I still don't think that there is a specific covenant associated with it, at least not in the scriptures. I know I have been blessed for abiding by it, but still I don't think there's a covenant attached specifically to it.

Is it a sin to violate it?

More specifically--is it a sin even for a non-member, who knows of it, to violate it?

[LeSellers]

Is it a sin to violate it?

More specifically--is it a sin even for a non-member, who knows of it, to violate it?

For anyone who is not a Saint, it is not a sin to violate it even if the person knows of it.

The sin is violation of the covenant. Only we Saints have made that covenant, ergo, it is a sin only to us.

That said, anyone who violates it will pay a price for that violation in that he will not be able to claim the physical blessings of physical obedience. If he does obey it, though, he will gain, not only the physical blessings associated with it, but many of the spiritual blessings as well.

In his introduction to the original commandment, Joseph tells us that the Word of Wisdom is given to all the Saints, and to the weakest of all the Saints, and to the weakest even of those who would be called Saints.

Lehi

[mercyngrace]

Is it a sin to violate it?

More specifically--is it a sin even for a non-member, who knows of it, to violate it?

No.

Not any more than it would have been for a non-Israelite to go uncircumcised or to eat pork.

[CV75]

Is it a sin to violate it?

More specifically--is it a sin even for a non-member, who knows of it, to violate it?

Sin is to “willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth.” http://lds.org/study/topics/sin?lang=eng

Since one’s primal, “unseare” (1 Timothy 4:2) conscience constitutes a form of knowledge of the truth, it would be a sin for a non-member to go against his conscience in a) succumbing to the “evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days.” (D&C 89:4); b) doing anything that is not “meet in the sight of your Father (D&C 89:4); c) consuming anything that facilitates his hurting others or separating himself further from God.

Of course even though we all sin, we sin by degrees, so someone who covenants not to do take a sip of booze is sinning worse than one who doesn't--all other things being equal, of course.

[Jigglysaint]

Lawyers have a basic rule.Never ask a question unless you already know the answer to it. I'm sure it is just me,but I get the feeling that some here hold to that rule religiously.

Lawyers also enjoy loopholes, which may be why they enjoy asking questions they already know. Heh, I should ask my Bishop about that one.

[cinepro]

I think Brigham Young said that the atonement didn't cover broken covenants, and that we had to pay for the sin of broken covenants ourselves.

What does it mean to "think" someone said something? Are you not sure? Did someone else tell you he said it but you haven't actually seen the source? Did you see the source long ago but you can't recall exactly what he said?

To the point at hand, it seems we've established fairly well in this thread that LDS are expected to keep the Word of Wisdom, non-LDS aren't (although it wouldn't hurt them if they did), and if LDS do break it, repentance is available to them through the regular channels. I'm not sure there's much more that can be said.

You could discuss the fact that D&C 89 (i.e. "The Word of Wisdom") actually says it's not being given as a commandment, yet modern LDS do view it as a commandment. You could talk about the ways in which modern LDS don't actually follow what is said in D&C 89. You could talk about the inconsistent interpretations given to D&C 89 over the years and by different LDS.

But the whole "covenant" thing seems to really be a non-starter, and it's kind of sad to see you digging for something that just isn't there. "A" for effort, though!

And, as a tangent, Brigham Young said tons of stuff that made sense in frontier Utah but doesn't apply quite so strictly to modern Church leaders. Your best bet for current LDS doctrine is LDS.org.

[inquiringmind]

What does it mean to "think" someone said something? Are you not sure? Did someone else tell you he said it but you haven't actually seen the source? Did you see the source long ago but you can't recall exactly what he said?

To the point at hand, it seems we've established fairly well in this thread that LDS are expected to keep the Word of Wisdom, non-LDS aren't (although it wouldn't hurt them if they did), and if LDS do break it, repentance is available to them through the regular channels. I'm not sure there's much more that can be said.

You could discuss the fact that D&C 89 (i.e. "The Word of Wisdom") actually says it's not being given as a commandment, yet modern LDS do view it as a commandment. You could talk about the ways in which modern LDS don't actually follow what is said in D&C 89. You could talk about the inconsistent interpretations given to D&C 89 over the years and by different LDS.

But the whole "covenant" thing seems to really be a non-starter, and it's kind of sad to see you digging for something that just isn't there. "A" for effort, though!

And, as a tangent, Brigham Young said tons of stuff that made sense in frontier Utah but doesn't apply quite so strictly to modern Church leaders. Your best bet for current LDS doctrine is LDS.org.

I didn't want to bring up the subject of "blood atonement," but the comments I alluded to (about covenant breaking) were attributed to BY in the Journal of Discourses (in the context of bllod atonement.)

I don't recall him talking about the WOW there, but I was wondering how much could be extrapolated from such comments (particularly if any promise one might have made to God in private prayer is a covenant.)

Thank you.

[cinepro]

I didn't want to bring up the subject of "blood atonement," but the comments I alluded to (about covenant breaking) were attributed to BY in the Journal of Discourses (in the context of bllod atonement.)

I don't recall him talking about the WOW there, but I was wondering how much could be extrapolated from such comments (particularly if any promise one might have made to God in private prayer is a covenant.)

Thank you.

When it comes to "blood atonement" and the Word of Wisdom, the degree of logical extrapolation is zero.

[inquiringmind]

When it comes to "blood atonement" and the Word of Wisdom, the degree of logical extrapolation is zero.

When I was attending a 7th day Sabbath keeping Church, I remember one lone vegetarian.

Before he joined this Church, he had been a 7th Day Advantest, and he had made some kind of promise to God about not eating meat.

I started this thread because I wanted a better idea of what's meant by covenants, and covenant breaking.

Brigham Young is reported to have said (in The Journal of Discourses) that such sins would not be forgiven.

I take it from your reply here that he was only talking about formal covenants made in a Temple.

Is that right?

[cinepro]

Brigham Young is reported to have said (in The Journal of Discourses) that such sins would not be forgiven.

I take it from your reply here that he was only talking about formal covenants made in a Temple.

Is that right?

No, the quote you're referring to doesn't say that at all. Assuming this is the quote you were thinking of:

When we come to home-made cloth, I must say it would make clothes good enough for me to wear. "Then why do you not wear it, bro. Brigham?" Shall I tell you? I have hardly worn a suit of clothes for years that has not been presented to me. If I knew that doing this would be a hindrance to the work of God, I would say to the next friend who wished to present me with a suit of clothes - "I thank you, but I will not wear them; you will please take them back to the store, or take them home and put them in the trunk." I know the thoughts of many are - "I wish they would serve me so." I wish they would; and if they will I will never say wear home-made again as long as friends will give you that which is imported, and you can lay by the money you save to send the Elders abroad to preach the gospel, to gather the poor, to help to build the temple of the Lord, or to finish the canal that we may get the rock here for the temple.

- JD 12:29, Brigham Young, April 7th, 186

As you can see, you're way off base. He wasn't even talking about covenants or forgiveness.

[inquiringmind]

No, the quote you're referring to doesn't say that at all. Assuming this is the quote you were thinking of:

As you can see, you're way off base. He wasn't even talking about covenants or forgiveness.

I was thinking of more than one quote (and that's not one of them.)

[Nathair/|\]