inquiringmind Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 What (or who) are Principalities, Thrones, and Dominions in LDS Theology?Did Joseph ever explain what these terms meant? Link to comment
LeSellers Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 What (or who) are Principalities, Thrones, and Dominions in LDS Theology?Sorry, to answer this, I'd have to get into Temple content, and that's not permitted (even were I to desire to do so).There is an explanation, it has nothing to do with courses of angels, but does refer to the concepts when speaking politically.Lehi Link to comment
zerinus Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 What (or who) are Principalities, Thrones, and Dominions in LDS Theology?Did Joseph ever explain what these terms meant?Scripture does not always explain all the terms it uses. It leaves it up to your own imaginations to figure out what they mean. Those words occur in the Bible as well as in the D&C without explanation, the assumption being that you have enough intelligence to figure them out for yourself—and if you can’t figure them out now, it doesn’t matter. One day you will. Here are the places where they occur:Colossians 1:16 For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for himD&C 121:29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.D&C 132:19 . . . and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths . . .I don't have a precise definition of what they all mean, and I am not bothered. I have a rough idea of what they could mean, and that is good enough for me, for now. Some things are more important than others, and I think that we both have more important things to worry about than that. Link to comment
cinepro Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 What (or who) are Principalities, Thrones, and Dominions in LDS Theology?Did Joseph ever explain what these terms meant?While we look to Joseph Smith as a Prophet, Seer and Revelator, I don't think we have ever expected him to be a dictionary. Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Scripture does not always explain all the terms it uses. It leaves it up to your own imaginations to figure out what they mean. Those words occur in the Bible as well as in the D&C without explanation, the assumption being that you have enough intelligence to figure them out for yourself—and if you can’t figure them out now, it doesn’t matter. One day you will. Here are the places where they occur:Colossians 1:16 For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for himD&C 121:29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.D&C 132:19 . . . and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths . . .I don't have a precise definition of what they all mean, and I am not bothered. I have a rough idea of what they could mean, and that is good enough for me, for now. Some things are more important than others, and I think that we both have more important things to worry about than that.This isn't a trivial question.The first pasage you quoted was Colosians 1:16.If "Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers" are personal beings exercising authority (seen and unseen, in heaven and earth), and Colosians 1:16 is saying that all such beings (and all things that exist, visible and invisible) were created (made, or produced) by God thru Christ, It leaves no room for a heavenly Grandfather, a heveanly Mother, or even spirit brothers and sisters (who were not made thru Christ, but procreated by His spirit-parents, the same as He was.)If that is what Paul is saying here in Colosians 1:16 (which seems to be the meaning of the text, at least on the surface), than Paul did not believe in the same Christ Mormons believe in, and Joseph Smith could not have restored the same Gospel that he and the Apostles preached (if the restored Gospel includes the procreation of spirit-chidren who were not created thru Christ, a heveanly mother not created thru Christ, a father above The Father who wasn't created thru Christ, and an infinite regress of gods who werent created thru Christ.) If the purpose of this board is to defend the Mormon faith (and if it wouldn't be breaking any oaths of secrecy), would someone explain what the "Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers" that Paul was speaking of are? Link to comment
zerinus Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 This isn't a trivial question.The first pasage you quoted was Colosians 1:16.If "Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers" are personal beings exercising authority (seen and unseen, in heaven and earth), and Colosians 1:16 is saying that all such beings (and all things that exist, visible and invisible) were created (made, or produced) by God thru Christ, It leaves no room for a heavenly Grandfather, a heveanly Mother, or even spirit brothers and sisters (who were not made thru Christ, but procreated by His spirit-parents, the same as He was.)If that is what Paul is saying here in Colosians 1:16 (which seems to be the meaning of the text, at least on the surface), than Paul did not believe in the same Christ Mormons believe in, and Joseph Smith could not have restored the same Gospel that he and the Apostles preached (if the restored Gospel includes the procreation of spirit-chidren who were not created thru Christ, a heveanly mother not created thru Christ, a father above The Father who wasn't created thru Christ, and an infinite regress of gods who werent created thru Christ.) If the purpose of this board is to defend the Mormon faith (and if it wouldn't be breaking any oaths of secrecy), would someone explain what the "Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers" that Paul was speaking of are?It is a trivial question. Those terms in Colossians mean the same thing as they do in the D&C. Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of the Father. I told you before, if you want to know what Mormonism teaches, study the standard works, and visit the Church's website. Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 It is a trivial question. Those terms in Colossians mean the same thing as they do in the D&C. Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of the Father. I told you before, if you want to know what Mormonism teaches, study the standard works, and visit the Church's website. I've been told that the existence of a heavenly Mother is LDS doctrine (Gospel Principles, "we're the literal ofspring of heavenly parents"), the standard works include the pearl of great price, and the doctrine and covenants, and in the King Follet Sermon, Joseph spoke of a Father above The Father, so it's not strictly true to say that "Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of The Father." You in fact teach that there are many things (The Father's Father, His Wife, His spirit-children, matter, and intelligence) that Jesus Christ didn't create under the direction of His Father (and the question of what Paul means when he says "by Him was the all created, in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: the all was created by Him and for Him" is hardly trivial to anyone who believes Paul's words were inspired by God.) Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The terms refer to political entities, as has already been said.For some reason, inquiring, you are not getting this. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I've been told that the existence of a heavenly Mother is LDS doctrine (Gospel Principles, "we're the literal ofspring of heavenly parents"), the standard works include the pearl of great price, and the doctrine and covenants, and in the King Follet Sermon, Joseph spoke of a Father above The Father, so it's not strictly true to say that "Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of The Father." You in fact teach that there are many things (The Father's Father, His Wife, His spirit-children, matter, and intelligence) that Jesus Christ didn't create under the direction of His Father (and the question of what Paul means when he says "by Him was the all created, in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: the all was created by Him and for Him" is hardly trivial to anyone who believes Paul's words were inspired by God.)Think of Christ as a title. "The Christ(s?) created all things, including political entities both here and in heaven.Does that help? Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 The terms refer to political entities, as has already been said.For some reason, inquiring, you are not getting this.It says "in heaven and earth, visible and invisible."If Paul was speaking of political entities (like Emperorship, the Senate, Sanhedrin, Satan, good and bad angels), would he not also be speaking of the individuals who ocupied those positions? And wouldn't "in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible" include all such positions and individuals? Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Think of Christ as a title. "The Christ(s?) created all things, including political entities both here and in heaven.Does that help?It reminds me of that quote (from Tullidge, that was aparently misattributed to Joseph Smith.) Link to comment
zerinus Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I've been told that the existence of a heavenly Mother is LDS doctrine (Gospel Principles, "we're the literal ofspring of heavenly parents"), the standard works include the pearl of great price, and the doctrine and covenants, and in the King Follet Sermon, Joseph spoke of a Father above The Father, so it's not strictly true to say that "Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of The Father." You in fact teach that there are many things (The Father's Father, His Wife, His spirit-children, matter, and intelligence) that Jesus Christ didn't create under the direction of His Father (and the question of what Paul means when he says "by Him was the all created, in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: the all was created by Him and for Him" is hardly trivial to anyone who believes Paul's words were inspired by God.)You have been told wrong. The King Follett discourse is not part of the standard works; and nothing has been revealed about God the Father having a Father. Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 What about Heavenly Mother, His spirit brothers and sisters, matter, energy, and intelligence?Is it LDS doctrine that these were created thru Christ under The Father's direction, or that they were not? Link to comment
zerinus Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 What about Heavenly Mother, His spirit brothers and sisters, matter, energy, and intelligence?Is it LDS doctrine that these were created thru Christ under The Father's direction, or that they were not?We know nothing about "heavenly mother;" but it is assumed that she exists. There are certain things that were not created at all, like matter and intelligence. God used them as raw materials with which to create everything else. When we say that Jesus created all things under the direction of the Father, we mean all things that were created. It does not include things that were not created at all, by anybody. Link to comment
Calm Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 You in fact teach that there are many things (The Father's Father, His Wife, His spirit-children, matter, and intelligence) that Jesus Christ didn't create under the direction of His Father (and the question of what Paul means when he says "by Him was the all created, in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: the all was created by Him and for Him" is hardly trivial to anyone who believes Paul's words were inspired by God.)Perhaps this will help you understand what LDS believe about creation and Christ's role in it:http://lds.org/manua...eation?lang=engandhttp://institute.lds...osp-01-10-7.aspDo you believe that when the Bible says all was created by Him and for Him, that it means that God was created by Christ or that Christ was created by Christ? If not, then there is at least one "thing" mentioned in the Bible that was not created by Christ so that requires a less rigid definition of "all things" that you appear to be applying here. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 It says "in heaven and earth, visible and invisible."If Paul was speaking of political entities (like Emperorship, the Senate, Sanhedrin, Satan, good and bad angels), would he not also be speaking of the individuals who ocupied those positions? And wouldn't "in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible" include all such positions and individuals?Think it through.If it was true that God has a father, wouldn't that imply a whole heavenly "Empire" full of "Royalty"?Note I said IF. Link to comment
Hughes Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 We know nothing about "heavenly mother;" but it is assumed that she exists. There are certain things that were not created at all, like matter and intelligence. God used them as raw materials with which to create everything else. When we say that Jesus created all things under the direction of the Father, we mean all things that were created. It does not include things that were not created at all, by anybody.So matter and intelligence are eternal? Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 So matter and intelligence are eternal?Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, "Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." Link to comment
ERayR Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 This isn't a trivial question.The first pasage you quoted was Colosians 1:16.If "Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers" are personal beings exercising authority (seen and unseen, in heaven and earth), and Colosians 1:16 is saying that all such beings (and all things that exist, visible and invisible) were created (made, or produced) by God thru Christ, It leaves no room for a heavenly Grandfather, a heveanly Mother, or even spirit brothers and sisters (who were not made thru Christ, but procreated by His spirit-parents, the same as He was.)If that is what Paul is saying here in Colosians 1:16 (which seems to be the meaning of the text, at least on the surface), than Paul did not believe in the same Christ Mormons believe in, and Joseph Smith could not have restored the same Gospel that he and the Apostles preached (if the restored Gospel includes the procreation of spirit-chidren who were not created thru Christ, a heveanly mother not created thru Christ, a father above The Father who wasn't created thru Christ, and an infinite regress of gods who werent created thru Christ.) If the purpose of this board is to defend the Mormon faith (and if it wouldn't be breaking any oaths of secrecy), would someone explain what the "Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and Powers" that Paul was speaking of are?Pauls writings mean just what they say. I don't see how you can get a personal being out of any one of these three terms. Thrones are symbolic of power and authority. Dominions are areas of control as is principalities. Powers denote again the authrity to administer in these areas. Link to comment
ERayR Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I've been told that the existence of a heavenly Mother is LDS doctrine (Gospel Principles, "we're the literal ofspring of heavenly parents"), the standard works include the pearl of great price, and the doctrine and covenants, and in the King Follet Sermon, Joseph spoke of a Father above The Father, so it's not strictly true to say that "Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of The Father." You in fact teach that there are many things (The Father's Father, His Wife, His spirit-children, matter, and intelligence) that Jesus Christ didn't create under the direction of His Father (and the question of what Paul means when he says "by Him was the all created, in heaven and earth, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: the all was created by Him and for Him" is hardly trivial to anyone who believes Paul's words were inspired by God.)It would be wiser of you to refrain from telling us what we think and teach, according to your anti-mormon sources and listen to what we really believe and teach. It is not only smarter but it is much more conducive to a profitable exchange of ideas. Link to comment
ERayR Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 What about Heavenly Mother, His spirit brothers and sisters, matter, energy, and intelligence?Is it LDS doctrine that these were created thru Christ under The Father's direction, or that they were not?No in fact it is taught that matter and intelligences were not nor can be created but have always existed. Link to comment
ERayR Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Perhaps this will help you understand what LDS believe about creation and Christ's role in it:http://lds.org/manua...eation?lang=engandhttp://institute.lds...osp-01-10-7.aspDo you believe that when the Bible says all was created by Him and for Him, that it means that God was created by Christ or that Christ was created by Christ? If not, then there is at least one "thing" mentioned in the Bible that was not created by Christ so that requires a less rigid definition of "all things" that you appear to be applying here.Again there are some things that are uncreatable and have eternal existance. Link to comment
Hughes Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, "Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."And matter? I didn't see that mentioned in that verse. Link to comment
volgadon Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 It would be wiser of you to refrain from telling us what we think and teach, according to your anti-mormon sources and listen to what we really believe and teach. It is not only smarter but it is much more conducive to a profitable exchange of ideas.That is not Inq at all. He does listen. Link to comment
zerinus Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 So matter and intelligence are eternal?Yes. Link to comment
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