Lds-Authored Attacks

[Mike Richards]

I have a friend (an Orthodox Presbyterian) who asked, "do you know of a book that is a direct attack of orthodox Christianity from a Mormon perspective?" Perhaps I have blinders on, but I don't know of any. I'm sure some will be inclined to suggest that the BoM is an attack, but he has read that and is looking for something that uses tactics similar to those used in books that attack the Mormon faith. Anyone have any suggestions?

[volgadon]

Not as far as I'm aware of. There was some strongly anti-Catholic stuff, but the Orthodox have mainly been ignored either way. I served my mission in a predominantly Orthodox area of the world, BTW.

[Rob Bowman]

volgadon,

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church is a Presbyterian denomination, not an (Eastern) Orthodox denomination. The OPC is largely limited to the United States.

Not as far as I'm aware of. There was some strongly anti-Catholic stuff, but the Orthodox have mainly been ignored either way. I served my mission in a predominantly Orthodox area of the world, BTW.

[volgadon]

volgadon,

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church is a Presbyterian denomination, not an (Eastern) Orthodox denomination. The OPC is largely limited to the United States.

Oops, I missed the Presbyterian part. Never heard of the OPC before, so thanks for the correction.

[Mike Richards]

volgadon,

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church is a Presbyterian denomination, not an (Eastern) Orthodox denomination. The OPC is largely limited to the United States.

Yeah, sorry, I should have been more explicit. I was confused for the first few months that I knew him (I thought Orthodox Presbyterian was like other "Orthodox"es--Greek, Russian, ...), but now I'm so used to his terminology that I forget other people will have the same thought I originally did. When he says "Orthodox" he does not mean what I previously thought of when I heard "Orthodox." He, basically, means Calvinist. So, any books that attack Calvinism?

[Mike Richards]

Not as far as I'm aware of. There was some strongly anti-Catholic stuff, but the Orthodox have mainly been ignored either way. I served my mission in a predominantly Orthodox area of the world, BTW.

I've seen some of the anti-catholic stuff, but, like I said, I don't know of anything attacking protestantism in general, let alone Calvinism...

[Rob Bowman]

volgadon,

No problem. I happen to have attended a seminary founded by the same people that founded the OPC.

Oops, I missed the Presbyterian part. Never heard of the OPC before, so thanks for the correction.

[cdowis]

There are no "attack" books, but there are a couple books on the apostacy, e.g. "The World and the Prophets" by Nibley.

[Rob Bowman]

mjr522,

The LDS Church doesn't publish whole books on any other religion, but it does attack the religious beliefs of other Christians. Even the scriptural account of the First Vision reports that Joseph told his mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true" (JS-H 1:20). Presbyterianism, of course, is a denominational movement that historically accepted Calvinist theology. Joseph E. Taylor wrote an article that appeared in the Improvement Era in 1901 entitled "Predestination, Foreordination, Election, and Free Agency," which was essentially a critique of Calvinism (mentioned explicitly throughout the article). Generally speaking, though, LDS teachers have usually taken the position that Calvin himself made legitimate contributions to Christian thought but fell short doctrinally and religiously because the Restoration was still future.

Yeah, sorry, I should have been more explicit. I was confused for the first few months that I knew him (I thought Orthodox Presbyterian was like other "Orthodox"es--Greek, Russian, ...), but now I'm so used to his terminology that I forget other people will have the same thought I originally did. When he says "Orthodox" he does not mean what I previously thought of when I heard "Orthodox." He, basically, means Calvinist. So, any books that attack Calvinism?

[Doctor Steuss]

I don't know of anything attacking protestantism in general

IMO, this book is pretty anti-Protestantism:

Biblical Mormonism: Responding to Evangelical Criticism of Lds Theology

[Calm]

IMO, this book is pretty anti-Protestantism:

Biblical Mormonism: Responding to Evangelical Criticism of Lds Theology

Here is a review of the book: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=14&num=1&id=417

I have heard one person whose word I trust that the book has some significant problems, but unfortunately I didn't get time to discuss it so don't know in what areas. I would be interested if any of our biblical scholars here have looked at it and what their opinion is of it.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

I don't believe that stating you don't believe a religion is an attack on that religion. IE; I'm don't believe the Buddhist are correct in their religion, but that is hardly an attack on Hinduism.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Rob Bowman:

I don't believe that stating you don't believe a religion is an attack on that religion. IE; I'm don't believe the Buddhist are correct in their religion, but that is hardly an attack on Hinduism.

Huh?

[bluebell]

Rob Bowman:

I don't believe that stating you don't believe a religion is an attack on that religion. IE; I'm don't believe the Buddhist are correct in their religion, but that is hardly an attack on Hinduism.

Especially since Hinduism and Buddhism are two different religions.

[Doctor Steuss]

Here is a review of the book: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=14&num=1&id=417

I have heard one person whose word I trust that the book has some significant problems, but unfortunately I didn't get time to discuss it so don't know in what areas. I would be interested if any of our biblical scholars here have looked at it and what their opinion is of it.

Hi Cal! Hope all is groovy in your neck of the woods.

After reading that review, I’m wondering if I am actually thinking of the wrong book now. This…

“…I am impressed by its … civility and respect toward other traditions—even when taking issue with their beliefs…”

…is definitely not an impression I came away with. As far as problems go, the thing that stood out the most to me was the author’s reliance on an old encyclopedia (I think it has been the only [theological] book I’ve read to date that used an encyclopedia as a citation for significant claims/etc.).

But, as I said, I'm wondering if I may be thinking of the wrong book having read Dr. Ricks' review (and it being so different from what I remember).

Hugs,

Stu

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

Tough night, too early in the morning. My mistake. Twenty lashes with a wet noodle for me.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

BookofMormonLuvr:

Tough night, too early in the morning. My mistake. Twenty lashes with a wet noodle for me.

Linguini or Fettucini?

[Flyonthewall]

Many Catholics and Protestants believe the account of the First Vision is an "attack" on all of Christianity. To state that "my church is right to the exclusion of others" can be construed as an "attack".

Define what an "attack" is, then go from there to see if any books or articles fit the description.

[thesometimesaint]

Flyonthewall:

Boo Whoo those mean Mormons simply don't agree with my religions, boo whoo.

I wonder what those "good" Christians think the actual wars between the Catholics and Protestants were?

[BCSpace]

I have a friend (an Orthodox Presbyterian) who asked, "do you know of a book that is a direct attack of orthodox Christianity from a Mormon perspective?" Perhaps I have blinders on, but I don't know of any. I'm sure some will be inclined to suggest that the BoM is an attack, but he has read that and is looking for something that uses tactics similar to those used in books that attack the Mormon faith. Anyone have any suggestions?

Mormonism IS Orthodox Christianity. I suppose that counts as an LDS authored "attack". But it is a claim I sincerely believe to be true. Here is a good primer on early Christian doctrine that is a very good assault on what nonLDS perceive to be orthodox christianity:

Restoring the Ancient Church

Anything showing the universal apostasy as the above does I think might be considered an "attack". In this case, the tactic is to show that the closer you get to the time of Christ, the more LDS-like Christian doctrine looks which is what one would expect if our claims are true. But I don't think you will find anything that matches antiMormon tactics in tone, invective, insinuation, and yellow journalism.

Show your friend this book which can be read online. It does not have a nasty tone, nor is it derogatory. You and he might find it very interesting.

[MorningStar]

mjr522,

The LDS Church doesn't publish whole books on any other religion, but it does attack the religious beliefs of other Christians. Even the scriptural account of the First Vision reports that Joseph told his mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true" (JS-H 1:20). Presbyterianism, of course, is a denominational movement that historically accepted Calvinist theology. Joseph E. Taylor wrote an article that appeared in the Improvement Era in 1901 entitled "Predestination, Foreordination, Election, and Free Agency," which was essentially a critique of Calvinism (mentioned explicitly throughout the article). Generally speaking, though, LDS teachers have usually taken the position that Calvin himself made legitimate contributions to Christian thought but fell short doctrinally and religiously because the Restoration was still future.

Oh, come on! That is hardly an attack.

[Calm]

Hi Cal! Hope all is groovy in your neck of the woods.

After reading that review, I’m wondering if I am actually thinking of the wrong book now. This…

“…I am impressed by its … civility and respect toward other traditions—even when taking issue with their beliefs…”

…is definitely not an impression I came away with. As far as problems go, the thing that stood out the most to me was the author’s reliance on an old encyclopedia (I think it has been the only [theological] book I’ve read to date that used an encyclopedia as a citation for significant claims/etc.).

But, as I said, I'm wondering if I may be thinking of the wrong book having read Dr. Ricks' review (and it being so different from what I remember).

Hugs,

Stu

Perhaps his other book (and that might be the one I am thinking of too) as it sounds more like what my friendd said:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=15&num=1&id=476

[Bernard Gui]

Many Catholics and Protestants believe the account of the First Vision is an "attack" on all of Christianity. To state that "my church is right to the exclusion of others" can be construed as an "attack".

Define what an "attack" is, then go from there to see if any books or articles fit the description.

I'm not sure Catholics and Protestants agree on what the "true" church is.

I'm not sure the Protestants agree among themselves what the "true" church is, either.

I'm not sure they even have a concept of a "true" church, except that whatever it is, it cannot

under any circumstances by the Mormon Church.

Bernard

[Flyonthewall]

I'm not sure Catholics and Protestants agree on what the "true" church is.

I'm not sure the Protestants agree among themselves what the "true" church is, either.

I'm not sure they even have a concept of a "true" church, except that whatever it is, it cannot

under any circumstances by the Mormon Church.

Bernard

Of course Catholics believe their church is the true church, and all of Protestantism is incomplete at best.

Protestantism, I'm not too sure about.

But I believe you are correct since there are positions within both that don't even allow us(LDS) to be Christian.

[Rob Bowman]

saint,

You wrote:

Rob Bowman:

I don't believe that stating you don't believe a religion is an attack on that religion.

Hurray! By your standard, I don't attack your religion, either.