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What'S On The Other Side


ERayR

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In the thread on First Cause elguanteloko posted this "Since you couldn't get the idea of an actual infinity not being able to exist" I must pose this question. If infinity can not exist then What is on the Other Side of infinity?

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Infinity is such a curious concept.

There are an infinite number of numbers. A little less than half are negative. A little less than half are nonnegative (positive plus zero). There's an infinite number of odd numbers, even numbers, numbers ending in '3.' What's infinity minus 5? Infinity? But then it's 5 less than the first infinity, so how is one bigger when they're both infinity? We're finite beings trying to define eternal, and hence infinite, concepts. The most we can do is wrap each other up in words.

Might as well just choose what to believe based on your experiences, invite any who are willing to hear your point of view, and allow others to do the same.

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In the thread on First Cause elguanteloko posted this "Since you couldn't get the idea of an actual infinity not being able to exist" I must pose this question. If infinity can not exist then What is on the Other Side of infinity?

We can hold the imaginative concept of eternity and infinity. But our finite minds will never comprehend/understand it. Simple as that.

The fact that we CAN and do hold the concept of infinity/eternity and have clearly defined terms for them proves that they exist. But the actual defining of them is left to the individual, since they are metaphysical concepts only; even the mathematics of it is metaphysical....

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Just to be clear, I was speaking of an actual infinite amount of things and NOT about mathematical or conceptual constructs.

I also wanted to respond to Questing Beast who wrote that...

The fact that we CAN and do hold the concept of infinity/eternity and have clearly defined terms for them proves that they exist.

Now, I hope he or she is talking about concepts existing but not actual things. That we can and do hold the concept of a dragon doesn't prove a dragon exists as anything more than a concept or idea.

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In the thread on First Cause elguanteloko posted this "Since you couldn't get the idea of an actual infinity not being able to exist" I must pose this question. If infinity can not exist then What is on the Other Side of infinity?

The Incredible Shrinking Man posited that it's the infinitesimal. Kind of a Buddhist kind of thing.

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Just to be clear, I was speaking of an actual infinite amount of things and NOT about mathematical or conceptual constructs.

How many times can you divide a piece of cheese?

An infinite amount of times ;-).

It is all relative. There is no way of proving infinity - nor is there any way to disprove it, because there is nothing so far that is defined as infinite. Until we have something definite to compare it to (an impossibility), you can't really say either way.

Now, I hope he or she is talking about concepts existing but not actual things. That we can and do hold the concept of a dragon doesn't prove a dragon exists as anything more than a concept or idea.

CFR that dragons have never, do not, and will never exist ;-). My friend, you can't prove it.

I have read many science fiction books. One of the interesting ones relates to drawing a reality from the mind, from it's variables. So technichally, yes, you could reconstruct a dragon from the mind. But we don't have the technology capable of doing it.

Another thing to chew on... how many calls can a computer with no limit on memory perform? Infinite. So if any infinite variable exists, infinite variables will exist in many places, probably.

The only thing I can think of that is infinite, is 'ultra-time'. In other words, the need for time in order for the big bang to even start (time is the only thing that allows motion). If you look at that, that tends to look at a time existing infinitely in the past, and a time existing infinitely in the future. Though that's debatable, I suppose.

Life is an interesting hardball at times XD.

Eh, I think I'm ranting now. I apologize. =P

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Suppose we take infinity out of the problem and posit an axiom that God has a life limit of 20 billion years,and that He is currently at 5 billion years. We are at the 2 million year mark and have the same life limit as God. To me this scenario would not cause me to go into a depression.I don't need infinity to ponder Godhood or my place in the universe.

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How many times can you divide a piece of cheese?

An infinite amount of times ;-).

In principle, yes. So? "Principles" are not what I'm talking about here.

It is all relative.

It isn't once we pick the point of reference. I've picked one that is quite common and to say "it is all relative" sounds more like a cop-out.

There is no way of proving infinity - nor is there any way to disprove it, because there is nothing so far that is defined as infinite. Until we have something definite to compare it to (an impossibility), you can't really say either way.

We can define infinity rather easily.

CFR that dragons have never, do not, and will never exist ;-). My friend, you can't prove it.

I'm NOT saying I can "prove" that dragons don't exist and I've never claimed nor hinted that I can. You aren't understanding my view here. All I'm saying is that the argument presented is clearly invalid.

I have read many science fiction books. One of the interesting ones relates to drawing a reality from the mind, from it's variables. So technichally, yes, you could reconstruct a dragon from the mind. But we don't have the technology capable of doing it.

Are you trying to be serious here? That we can make a fictitious animal doesn't mean dragons exist either. Again, I was attacking the inference.

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Speaking of dragons . . .

And infinity . . .

The multi-metaverse is a closed system.

Infinity does not require an open system. In fact the infinity that exists in the multi-metaverse is part of a closed system (or however best to grammatically say that).

In other words, if a dragon is in yours and my minds . . . (in a closed system, the set of EVERYTHING (literally)) the chances of a dragon existing materially somewhere and/or somewhen in the multimetaverse is 100 percent. At the very least, Tao and I will be collaborating on creating a dragon for our term project in the New Jerusalem/C.K. university class called "Creation 701: Theories you missed when you took this class the first time around in the pre-existence."

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My favorite thought on infinity is this:

Question: How many steps will it take to walk to the mailbox if each step only gets you halfway there? Answer: An infinite amount of steps, but I should get close enough rather quickly to be able to get the mail.

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Just to be clear, I was speaking of an actual infinite amount of things and NOT about mathematical or conceptual constructs.

I also wanted to respond to Questing Beast who wrote that...

The fact that we CAN and do hold the concept of infinity/eternity and have clearly defined terms for them proves that they exist.

Now, I hope he or she is talking about concepts existing but not actual things. That we can and do hold the concept of a dragon doesn't prove a dragon exists as anything more than a concept or idea.

"He", btw.

Let us not conflate our manipulation of words with actual concepts that we can conceive of. For example: "can God create a round square?" We can string words together to form an infinite number of nonsensical assertions. I have said that it is impossible to imagine the impossible. Someone could take the above example to disprove this assertion, i.e. show it to be nonsensical as well. But it isn't nonsensical or even untrue: our finite minds have an apparently limitless capacity for imagination. Yet being finite we must allow that INFINITY is beyond our purview and always will be. All we can do is accept that it is part of reality. But we will never comprehend infinity with a finite mind. That we can string together words into nonsensical assertions does not make them comprehensible. I can say "a square is a circle" and that sentence is in no way true, nor will it ever be true; neither can my mind even begin to believe a situation where it would be true: the statement is fallacious despite the assertion easily being put into words.

Your "dragon" is not at all impossible, being an empirical creature with precedent in mythology. That a dragon exists today is the unbelievable part (to most people)....

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Infinity is a concept that begs description. For instance- it is rather improper to say that an actual infinity of something exists because it denotes that it has a capacity. But something infinite lacks capacity. The word can be used to describe something of an endless duration but it cannot be used to describe something actually attainable. For instance- we could never reach a point where we had an infinite amount of anything, be it wisdom, love, knowledge, or even of material possessions. We could also never attain an infinite amount of experiences. So, in reality, the concept of infinity can only be used to describe something as having no end. But for us, the nature of the Gods, is that all things are always numbered to us. Our ability to know anything, even be it a great number, is the capacity of having it numbered. We can proceed into eternity and go on forever but never will we gain an inumerable amount of experiences. It is the same with our knowledge of the universe. We can only know that which is numbered and even though the universe may go on forever (?) we cannot know of all of it because it lacks a capacity. We may continue to know about an endless universe but at no time could we comprehend the fullness of something having no end- because that is impossible to know.

Thus if we can see the true logic here, infinity is a concept to denote the neverending status of something but is only an abstract concept that is not physically attainable. All things, no matter what it is, will only be known by us to be numbered. We can never attain an infinite amount of something. And so- it can be said that no one will ever achieve any state of infinity.

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@Rob Osborn: Absolutely right. Infinity is a metaphysical concept. The actual universe we inhabit has a quantity, both volume as well as duration. That it COULD endure forever is a theory (but even Jesus Christ said "new heavens and new earth", i.e. the world/universe will pass away and be replaced). That it could expand and contract is the stuff of quantum theory; that this process could go on forever, and has no beginning and therefore no end, is a concept only, not something we will ever be able to quantify, since we are linear creatures who exist only moment by moment in a single direction (present into the future). If we somehow ever arrive at a state where we can manipulate space-time, i.e. time travel, then we will be in possession of a quantifiable definition of infinity - where space-time is concerned anyway. The only way we could comprehend infinity itself is to be "God In Total", i.e. outside of space-time, viewing the whole of Existence as NOW (as the scripture says, "All things are before my face continually" and"My creations are not numbered to man but I know their number", etc.)....

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In other words, if a dragon is in yours and my minds . . . (in a closed system, the set of EVERYTHING (literally)) the chances of a dragon existing materially somewhere and/or somewhen in the multimetaverse is 100 percent.

There is no set of EVERYTHING. See Russel's Paradox. Also, there is an important distinction between sequences which converge surely and those which converge Almost Surely. Finally, you might be looking at a probability so infinitesimal that even an infinity of chances does not render hitting it very likely. For example, if you were to pick any real number between 3 and 4--rational and irrational--the chances you pick pi exactly would be infinitesimal. If you repeat the experiment (countable) infinity times, this does not render the chances of hitting Pi to be very likely at all--it remains infinitesimal (basically 0, although it technically could happen).

All that said, I think it's more fun to imagine what it would be like having an infinite improbability drive from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I could watch my left arm drift off into space while the city washes up and down and my friend becomes a penguin--or if you prefer, a dragon.

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For instance- it is rather improper to say that an actual infinity of something exists because it denotes that it has a capacity.

Not necessarily. Take electrical conductance for example. It is defined as the inverse of resistance. Numbers are used for more than just counting. :pirate:

It is the same with our knowledge of the universe. We can only know that which is numbered and even though the universe may go on forever (?) we cannot know of all of it because it lacks a capacity. We may continue to know about an endless universe but at no time could we comprehend the fullness of something having no end- because that is impossible to know.

Wait, so are you saying that the universe has an endless amount of matter? Do you mean it already has an endless amount of matter, or only that it will continue expanding and obtaining more matter?

Also, what are your thoughts on how long the oldest matter has existed? Did it have a beginning? Was there a time when nothing existed, and if so how did anything come into existence? Was there a first god, a first particle, a first universe?

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Can the human mind imagine an object that has four spatial dimensions?

According to the latest theories, our universe came from an 11 dimensional universe and there is mathematical evidence of the existence of even much higher dimensional univerese. I can't even imagine an object with four spatial dimensions, so how can I imagine one with 10 or more spatial dimensions.

Are our spirits three dimensional beings or are they from a higher dimension? Is God a three dimensional being or is He higher?

Talking about infinity, infinity to the infinite power is infinity and infinity divided by infinity can be zero, one, or even infinity. There are also an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1. There are also an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 0.000000000000000001.

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Not necessarily. Take electrical conductance for example. It is defined as the inverse of resistance. Numbers are used for more than just counting. :pirate:

Wait, so are you saying that the universe has an endless amount of matter? Do you mean it already has an endless amount of matter, or only that it will continue expanding and obtaining more matter?

Also, what are your thoughts on how long the oldest matter has existed? Did it have a beginning? Was there a time when nothing existed, and if so how did anything come into existence? Was there a first god, a first particle, a first universe?

I am merely suggesting that the universe and how much matter it contains, if it truly goes on forever, is thus unknowable because we as humans or even the Gods for that matter can only know that which is countable- that which is numbered. As for the count of matter itself, I don't believe it is possible to create matter from nothing just as it is impossible to destroy matter or make it disappear. This thus means that matter I believe has existed forever. Sure, it creates a pretty unsurmountable enigma but the opposite holds equally enigmatic also- that matter came from nothing or had a beginning from nothing. As for tracing the Gods back into the past, I am fully aware of the grand paradox that creates. On the one hand logic tells me there had to be a first cause, and on the other a first cause doesn't exists unless something acts to cause on it. Perhaps it is best settled in my head to just say that all I shall ever know will always be numbered and thus, all I ever shall know will always be some finite numbered point that is ever changing and progressing further and further the greater I become.

All we can ever know is that which can be numerically numbered and thus known. We cannot ever know a point of a hypothetical infinity (a value or percentage of infinity) because the inbetween cannot be connected and thus doesn't really exist nor cannot exist. All points of our knowledge- that which we will ever know will always be connected to us by a finite set of points. So whereas our knowledge of things can expand forever into the future and we can even learn or know of points in the past forever that direction, we shall never have an infinite amount of knowledge, only always a finite set. That finite set means that we shall only know of finite points both in the past and the future even though it is open-ended in both directions. That is good for us because it means we cannot ever know of "all things" because "all things" doesn't really exist as a finite entity.

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Well Rob, it sounds like you believe there are actual infinities--an infinite amount of matter which has existed for an infinite (no beginning) amount of time. You simply believe that we cannot comprehend it all because it can't all be numbered.

I have a few follow up questions. Do you believe that Heavenly Father will stop having children at some point--maybe that point is already? If not, is there going to have to be another Savior to pay for the sins of later people, or did the Atonement of Christ cover everyone who will be created later. If God will not be creating any more children, what will He do with the rest of eternity? What do previous gods do--are they helping our Father?

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There are an infinite number of numbers. A little less than half are negative. A little less than half are nonnegative (positive plus zero).

There are an infinite number of numbers, but you can't really compare the infinite groups as ratios. There are precisely as many even numbers as there are numbers ending in '3' and precisely as many integers altogether. However, there are waaay more irrational numbers than rational numbers even though there are precisely as many numbers ending in '5' as there are rational numbers.

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Well Rob, it sounds like you believe there are actual infinities--an infinite amount of matter which has existed for an infinite (no beginning) amount of time. You simply believe that we cannot comprehend it all because it can't all be numbered.

I have a few follow up questions. Do you believe that Heavenly Father will stop having children at some point--maybe that point is already? If not, is there going to have to be another Savior to pay for the sins of later people, or did the Atonement of Christ cover everyone who will be created later. If God will not be creating any more children, what will He do with the rest of eternity? What do previous gods do--are they helping our Father?

Not sure about all that other than the fact that God only has a numbered set (finite) of children and will always continue to just have a finite number (countable) of children. He may continue to hve children indefinately but will always have a finite numbered set of children. I am not sure about how far the atonement extends, wheter it be to all God's children or just us on this planet.

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