inquiringmind Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Was there a council of Gods before the creation of the earth?(And if so, where is this found in LDS scripture?) Link to comment
livy111us Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2010-David-Bokovoy.pdf Link to comment
Maidservant Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 You can start in the Pearl of Great Price, the Book of Abraham, where the story of the creation is told as the result of the actions of "the gods" rather than God. Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 I've read what I can, but I'm unclear on whether the council was before or affter the creation, the fall of Lucifer, or our birth as spirit children (i.e. were we spirits, or intelligences?)Also, who was the head of the Gods (The Father, or His Father?), and who was the one God appointed for us (Jesus or His Father?)And what role did we play at the council?(Were we just observers?)Does LDS scripture, The Words of Joseph Smith, or The History of The Church fill in any of these details? Link to comment
Kevin Christensen Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I've read what I can, but I'm unclear on whether the council was before or affter the creation, the fall of Lucifer, or our birth as spirit children (i.e. were we spirits, or intelligences?) Before the creation of this earth, before the fall of Lucifer, and at a point where we were participants, and could, as the Job is reminded, shout for joy at the decisions. See Abraham 3. Also, compare two early Christian writings found here:http://www.thinlyveiled.com/pearl.htmTry the Hymn of the Pearl and the Discourse on Abbaton by Timothy.Also, who was the head of the Gods (The Father, or His Father?), and who was the one God appointed for us (Jesus or His Father?)Consider the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Ps 110 in the contexts provided here:http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdfAnd discussed here: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2003_Monotheism_Messiah_and_Mormons_Book.html And what role did we play at the council?(Were we just observers?)All we've got is what we have in passages in Moses, Abraham, some passages in the D&C, and a few hints in the Bible, along with some emerging information all over the ancient near east.Does LDS scripture, The Words of Joseph Smith, or The History of The Church fill in any of these details?Some, fortunately, which turn out to be very significant.LDS scholar Kevin Barney wrote an essay that surveyed recent scholarship in comparison to “Six Concepts in Joseph Smith’s Understanding of Genesis 1:1.” In the essay Barney notes that “revelation often results after wrestling with ideas, and Joseph’s struggle with the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 seems to have yielded six key concepts, which he expressed either in the King Follet Discourse, or in a parallel discourse he gave on June 16, 1844. These six concepts may be summarized as follows. “ 1. The creation was effected not “out of nothing,” but from pre-existing matter. 2. In the very beginning, there was plurality of Gods. 3. Among this plurality, there was a head God (or there were head Gods). 4. These Gods met in a grand council. 5. There Gods in council appointed one God over us. 6. The idea of a plurality of Gods, which is most easily seen “at the beginning,” is found throughout the Bible. Barney’s essay notes that “when propounded in 1844, each of these six ideas was no doubt considered unusual or unorthodox by other religious traditions...Yet the first five are widely acknowledged by current Biblical scholars to be accurate expressions of religious beliefs among the Hebrews during the time of the patriarchs. The sixth concept, while still representing a minority view, has also received strong scholarly support in recent decades.”After reviewing a wide array of Old Testament commentators on these six points, Barney observes that “this scholarship appears to have answered a long standing problem in New Testament Studies: How was it possible that Jewish-Christians in the early church were able to acknowledge Jesus as divine? If, as many believe, the Jews of that era held to an iron clad monotheism, such a result would have been very problematic. If, however, the pluralistic, dualistic elements of historic Hebrew theology had a continued vitality until and beyond the Christian era, then it becomes more understandable how the earliest Jewish-Christians were able to worship both the Father and the Son as readily as they did.”Barney then makes a statement that shows the real implications of the Deut. 13 test for appreciating Joseph Smith: "It is one thing today for scholars to identify the persistence of ancient Hebrew pluralism and to write papers and books on the subject (each building on the work of earlier scholars). It is quite another thing for Joseph Smith to have made these claims, against his own earlier pietistic perceptions of monotheism and without any discernible support from the learned of the day, and to have committed the Church to this position as a principle of doctrine. That no scholar ever did... That Joseph should have articulated these ideas so well and so forcefully in the middle of the nineteenth century is, in my view, nothing short of remarkable." Link to comment
LeSellers Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I wrote this many years ago. Not sure it fits here as well as I'd like, but it has some application. The Book of 9 LehiChapter 8Lehi relates the parable of the wedding cake. The decorator chooses cake mixes. She finds weevils in many of the mixes and destroys them. She bakes others and decorates them according to her plan. She rejoices with her son and daughter-in-law at their wedding. Now, behold, I, Lehi, spake unto the multitude of Sarm, saying, Hear ye the parable of the woman and the cakes. A certain woman went unto her grocer and found a bargain on cake mixes. And, she, being a prudent woman, bought many, of a variety of flavors and brands. Soon after, her son chose to marry, and the woman, being a cunning artificer of cakes, determined to make the wedding cake herself, thus saving money, and also showing unto her son the love she hath for him. After much planning, the woman chose many of the cake mixes to be part of the wedding cake, but when she opened them, lo! many, the third part, had weevils and were unfit to be part of the wedding cake, and she cast them out into the fire to be burned with fire. But the rest, she mixed with water, and milk and eggs and put the batter in pans to bake. Each batter she measured that the wedding cake might fit her plan and the wedding cake be a tribute to her son and her daughter-in-law. And behold, in the proper time and season, she baked each cake in an oven of fire and heat, timing each one according to its size and weight, that each might be perfect. When she took the cakes out of the oven, behold, one was scorched and not fit. But the woman had many cakes, and she utterly destroyed that cake that it be not part of the wedding cake of her son. After the baking, the woman had many cakes, but some were suitable for the lowest level of the cake. These she covered with frosting and flowers, and thus the lowest level of the wedding cake was finished. And it was glorious and beautiful and filled the measure of its creation and preparation. Then took she those cakes that were fit to be in the second tier, and she covered these with frosting a with flowers and with swans, according to her plan for the second layer of the wedding cake. And it was glorious and beautiful, yea, even more beautiful than the first. And thus it filled the measure of its creation and preparation. Now, behold, she had few cakes left, and these were small, but extremely fine. These she covered with rolled fondant and she smoothed it that it be perfect. Then she added flowers in abundance and swans and doves and all manner of decorations that the top layer might be yet more glorious than all the others, yea, and more beautiful. Yea, that it might be the most glorious of all, for this was the layer that her son would take and save unto himself and his bride that they might feast thereupon in the anniversary of the wedding. For, for this purpose, to please her son, hath she made all these cakes, yet one only was suitable for her son. See ye, all ye who seek to find the kingdom of heaven; and hear ye, all ye who would hear the word of God. For this parable shows the love our Father hath for His children, yea even us, we who inhabit this earth of His creation. Now, I, Lehi, know mine infirmities and my weaknesses are many in the sight of God, yet God doeth His will with those who are the sons of men, that all might be saved in His kingdom. Amen.Chapter 9Lehi interprets the parable of the wedding cake because of the hardness of his hearers’ hearts. She represents the Father, the mixes are His children. The weevils are the rebellion of Satan. The chosen cake mixes are His children whom He sent to Earth. Some cakes are unfit for the final cake. Three layers of cakes represent the Kingdoms of Glory. Now, when I, Lehi, had spoken these things, behold, many had their ears stopped and their eyes blind, for their hearts were hard and their minds were shut. So, I, Lehi, spake again unto the multitude, saying, ye have heard the parable of the woman and the cakes, now hear ye the interpretation thereof. The woman representeth God in His power and might, and the cake mixes are the children she brought forth out from among the intelligences that were many and these were begotten as spirit children of the Father. For behold, had not the grocer many? And were there not more yet in warehouses and in factories and on trucks that more yet would be forthcoming in the day when they would be prepared to receive greater things, even eggs and milk and water, that they be greater than their first existence? Yea, I say unto you, they were now prepared to go and increase in their capacities and their time was come that they be no longer mixes, but batter they should be for they were ready. Should they not fill the measure of their creation? I say unto you, yea. The weevils in the third part of the mixes is the rebellion of Satan and those who followed him. And I say unto you, were they not cast out from the kitchen, yea, even the presence of God? Were they not burned with fire that they not become part of the wedding cake of the son? Was the woman responsible for the weevils? I say unto you, nay. For she chose those mixes with care, knowing that she would use them and that she and her family and her guests would eat thereof in the day of their preparation. The batter representeth the spirits the our Father hath begotten in the Celestial realms, and when we were ready, He sent us to the earth to be tried, yea even with fire and trials of sorrow and trials of pain and suffering. But the batter becometh not cake without heat and fire. Yea, though heat is needed to make cake of batter, even so, a cake may be weak and the heat of the oven be too great, that the cake scorch and become unfit for the eating thereof, but be burned and cast out. These are those who reject the testimony of the Holy Ghost concerning Jesus Christ after they have received it and know of a certainty that He is their God and Redeemer. Thus, they are cast out, and they do not have glory added unto them, yet they are no more mixes, yea, nor even batter, but cakes, which thing is good, for unto this end were they created. The three layers of the wedding cake are the three kingdoms of glory, each being more glorious than the last, until the third which is the Kingdom of Glory and exaltation. For this is the layer given unto the son to celebrate the feast of the wedding of the son. Hear ye, O Earth, give ear, O ye men of Sarm. Our God is God, and His greatness and His glory are forever. Yet doth He love you, and ye are His. But ye cannot sin, neither can ye turn your back on Him lest ye be not of that layer wherein the son doth glory with his bride. Amen Enjoy,Lehi Link to comment
inquiringmind Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 Before the creation of this earth, before the fall of Lucifer, and at a point where we were participants, and could, as the Job is reminded, shout for joy at the decisions. See Abraham 3I'll have to re-read Abraham 3, but the last time I looked the timing wasn't at all clear to me.How do we know it was before the creation of the earth, before the fall of Lucifer, and in what sense were we participants?(I don't know if it was JS, or BY, but I read of a vote being taken at the council somewhere?) Link to comment
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