Judas Iscariot

[Rivers]

Matthew 27:

3¶Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have abetrayed the innocent bblood. And they said, What is that to us? csee thou to that.

5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went aand bhanged himself.

just curious.

I see some remorse there.

[thesometimesaint]

Rivers:

Remorse for sin is good, but insufficient. There needs to be restitution also. How does he make restitution for the betrayal of his God?

[Stargazer]

Rivers:

Remorse for sin is good, but insufficient. There needs to be restitution also. How does he make restitution for the betrayal of his God?

Restitution is always incomplete. Even if you give back the thing you stole it still remains that you stole it -- this cannot be changed. There are some things that you cannot restore, even if you try with all your might and heart. I think that if you sincerely and completely repent of what you have done, and do all that is in your power to undo it (even if you cannot in actuality undo it, even in part), then restitution will be imputed to you.

I think it is certainly possible for Judas to have gained forgiveness. Whether he is shut out of exaltation is another question, however. Jesus himself said that those who deny Him can be forgiven. Betrayal is a form of denial, so I think Judas's act is convered here.

[livy111us]

I am curious as to what is in the articles that claim that Judas was forgiven. Do you have links? Personally, I believe the scriptures are pretty clear as to his fate and intent.

Judas is listed beside the non-believers in John 6:64-- "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

John 17:12--While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:25--That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Mat. 26:24-- The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Peter, in quoting Psalms, Acts 1:20--For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

John 6:70--Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

From those scriptures, how do you assume that Jesus asked him to do it, that he did it with a pure heart or for any other reason other than he actually betrayed Jesus? If he was asked, it wouldn't have been a transgression and have been called a devil.

[Duncan]

I am curious as to what is in the articles that claim that Judas was forgiven. Do you have links? Personally, I believe the scriptures are pretty clear as to his fate and intent.

Judas is listed beside the non-believers in John 6:64-- "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

John 17:12--While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:25--That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Mat. 26:24-- The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Peter, in quoting Psalms, Acts 1:20--For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

John 6:70--Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

From those scriptures, how do you assume that Jesus asked him to do it, that he did it with a pure heart or for any other reason other than he actually betrayed Jesus? If he was asked, it wouldn't have been a transgression and have been called a devil.

http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/45.2Judd%20e3992c3f-0b66-4c51-b30a-903c700c9636.pdf

You owe me $10 in two unmarked bills, put the money in a 7-11 bag in an abandoned car, near the river by midnite tonite, just do it and don't ask me any questions

[livy111us]

Thank you very much for that, Duncan. It was an interesting read but have to admit, I am unconvinced. I don't put much weight into past Prophets opinions and think scripture holds more water. IMO, I think scripture is on the side of him doing wrong, and was most likely a son of perdition.

[Duncan]

Thank you very much for that, Duncan. It was an interesting read but have to admit, I am unconvinced. I don't put much weight into past Prophets opinions and think scripture holds more water. IMO, I think scripture is on the side of him doing wrong, and was most likely a son of perdition.

No sweat! I guess we will find out for sure when we meet the sweet embrace of death

[Stargazer]

I am curious as to what is in the articles that claim that Judas was forgiven. Do you have links? Personally, I believe the scriptures are pretty clear as to his fate and intent.

Judas is listed beside the non-believers in John 6:64-- "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

John 17:12--While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:25--That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Mat. 26:24-- The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Peter, in quoting Psalms, Acts 1:20--For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

John 6:70--Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

From those scriptures, how do you assume that Jesus asked him to do it, that he did it with a pure heart or for any other reason other than he actually betrayed Jesus? If he was asked, it wouldn't have been a transgression and have been called a devil.

When you ask "how do you assume" here, I assume you mean me, despite the lack of any quotation, so I'll respond.

I know nothing concerning Judas's ultimate fate. I do not know if he is a Son of Perdition, or if he escapes this fate. I do not truly know if he is fit for forgiveness, and I doubt you can know it either. I know he did a pretty dispicable thing, and that is all. I am not certain that the vilification he gets in the New Testament is due to the need to create in him an uber-villain, or reflects his real salvafic status. I do know that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly (and insofar as it was transmitted by its actual authors).

And I do know that whatever becomes of Judas in the eternities will be just, because God is Just. And that suffices me.

[USU78]

Had a thought about Judas' cognomen a couple of days ago and I've been stewing on it.

Lots of folks for a long time have assumed that the "Iscariot" is derived from sicarius, something in Greek akin to assassin . . . related to a kind of knife employed in that business.

Take off the ending and you've got something similar to Issachar. Maybe the guy had no sinister cognomen after all.

USU "What's Montague?" 78

[Calm]

Restitution is always incomplete. Even if you give back the thing you stole it still remains that you stole it -- this cannot be changed. There are some things that you cannot restore, even if you try with all your might and heart. I

Which is why the Law of Moses had restitution not just as returning the identical thing to what you stole or simply replacing the value of it if that wasn't possible, but replacing it with four fold its value...thus more likely covering the damages or loss of revenue (past and future) entailed by its loss as well as its replacement cost.

Still imperfect since not everything lost was strictly of material value.

[Calm]

From those scriptures, how do you assume that Jesus asked him to do it, that he did it with a pure heart or for any other reason other than he actually betrayed Jesus? If he was asked, it wouldn't have been a transgression and have been called a devil.

How could it be a betrayal if Jesus had asked him to do so?

[Nathair/|\]

Whatever happened with the "Gospel of Judas" I heard rumors about a few years ago?

[thesometimesaint]

Stargazer:

There is the Jewish tradition that to return the item 5 fold constitutes restitution.

[Calm]

Whatever happened with the "Gospel of Judas" I heard rumors about a few years ago?

Not a scholarly article, but can give you hints for further research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Nat Geo: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/

You can also read a translation: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/document.html

[Stargazer]

Stargazer:

There is the Jewish tradition that to return the item 5 fold constitutes restitution.

Well, sure, but it isn't just the person stolen from who has been offended against. The breaking of the commandment is the sin, and there is nothing that can take that away, even if you return the item 100 fold. That sin lays up against us with no way to overcome it, except through Christ's sacrifice. Thus the Lord's statement that if you rely upon the merits of Christ, the sin becomes one of those that "I remember no more." It is as if the sin had never been committed.

But without Jesus the sin remains imputed to us like superglue no matter what we do, depsite "tradition."

[Pahoran]

I think the Bible shows that Judas did what He was predestined by God to do, but yet is still subject to punishment because of His sin.

John 17:12

12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:23-25

23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”

Jesus answered, “You have said so.”

I think God did what He did with the Pharoah, He hardened Judas heart and used Him as a vessel of destruction to do His greater will, Romans 9 has this painted all over it.

I'm sorry, but I'm unable to find that the Calvinist notion that people can be infallibly "predestined" to do something, such that they will inevitably do it, and yet somehow still be morally accountable for doing something they had no choice in, to be scriptural or even coherent.

Just as I am unable to find that gangs of haters such as Reachout Trust (ROT) or CARM have anything worthwhile to say about the Church of Jesus Christ.

Regards,

Pahoran

[ERayR]

Matthew 27:

3¶Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have abetrayed the innocent bblood. And they said, What is that to us? csee thou to that.

5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went aand bhanged himself.

just curious.

Beyond my pay grade. I have no need to know the answer.