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Discovering the truth of the church


Monster

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

search and pray; i often like to study the bible and relate it to l.d.s truths... then also study how the bible came to its present day canon; which helps a lot of our understanding... no amount of study will "prove" anything to you but it can and will get you going in the right direction to receive spiritual confirmations; remember if you do not sincerly desire to know the truths; you will not receive them; heavenly father will not give you a bolt of lightning or anything as such.. but he will give you confirmation after confirmation after confirmation as you personaly need; and ONLY if you sincerly seek it..:)

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I hope Hamba Tuhan doesn't mind but I'm quoting something he said on another thread:

I too have a good mate whose therapist told him that the source of his depression was his religion and the 'dissonance' it was creating in his life between his ideals and his actual behaviour. He spent the next four years in hedonistic pursuits...and ended up more miserable than when he had started. When we first met, we were both postgrads. His mum had begged him to come back to church, just one Sunday, to see if it would help. He'd agreed, knowing that it wouldn't help; the Church was the source of his problem. But this time, he opened his heart and felt the call to repentance. I remember sitting in my car with him one Saturday night many months later as he told me this story. (We talked til the sun rose.) He said that, having made the choice to actually embrace the gospel instead of smashing himself against it, he'd become so happy that he wanted everyday to climb to the top of the highest tree he could find and shout hallelujahs to whoever would listen.

This was my experience as well and I think sometimes we try so hard to prove it true that we forget that sometimes we must just live it and then let it work in us.

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

Start by being true and reliable yourself -- not that you aren't now, but once you attend to these specific principles you will find other people, powers, principles and ideas that are also true and reliable. Try rendering service, selflessly and anonymously if possible, but in any way you can, and keeping a journal.

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

What do you believe in currently that can form the basis for LDS belief? God? The Bible? General Christianity. If you are already a believing Christian, there is no logical reason not to become LDS. Ultimately, you're still going to need the testimony of the Spirit, but the Bible leads to the LDS Church and no other. Of course, accepting the Bible as the word of God is no different than accepting the testimony of others.

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

What kind of problems are you seeing? Are you getting results that are inconsistent with your world view? Are you not getting any discernible results at all? Are you being asked to make painful sacrifices where you can't see the benefit? Something else?

What, specifically are you looking for the truth about? The historicity of the Book of Mormon? The morality of polygamy? The existence of the unseen realms?

Without more information, I can't really give you the kind of answer you deserve, but here is my best attempt. You could travel to Saudi Arabia and visit the sites proposed for Nahom, Valley of Lemuel and Bountiful and compare them to the text. You could, possibly, if you are nearly impossibly intelligent, rebuild the science of archaeology from the ground up and then study Mesoamerican ruins. If the laws of physics allow it, you might even be able to build a device, ala OSC's Pastwatch, and observe historical events. Any or all of these things could give you some confirmation of the historical claims of the church. You might then be able to apply logic and conclude that certain other teachings are most likely true or false. But until you learn to work with the things of the spirit, the most you will ever be able to say for certain concerning the most important teachings is: "X seems to be most likely to be true, but I don't really know for sure."

(As an aside, that's the biggest problem I have with the type of atheism that states absolutely, "There is no god." It seems to me that it is a proposition that is impossible to prove. I respect agnosticism in that regard for it's comparative intellectual clarity and honesty.)

Yours under the philosophical oaks,

Nathair /|\

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

He who limits himself to living life by only the five physical senses is living life half blind. Things of the spirit must be sensed by the spirit. The mistake most often made is that it comes clearly and with no effort. One must work at developing it and it is not always clear at first.

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I hope Hamba Tuhan doesn't mind but I'm quoting something he said on another thread:

...

This was my experience as well and I think sometimes we try so hard to prove it true that we forget that sometimes we must just live it and then let it work in us.

Nope, I don't mind at all. I was actually thinking of one of my priests just now. A few Sundays ago, I spent nine hours helping him write an essay for a school assignment. In the midst of his work, he said he wasn't sure that he understood answers to prayers. I asked him then why he does what he does. (He is preparing for a mission even though his parents have threatened to throw him out of the house if he follows through with his plans.) He said he makes the choices he does because he trusts that I've taught him the truth. I told him that wasn't good enough in any way, shape, or form. How, I asked him, does he know that I'm not wrong? He thought about it for several minutes, and then he said, 'When I do what you teach me, it works, and it makes me very happy.'

I thought that was a pretty good answer, which in turn made me think of a similar answer given by the Saviour Himself: 'If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.'

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

Prayer and faith are everything Monster... they really are a personal witness. A personal witness is worth thousands of testimonies of others, thousands of facts or evidences, or thousands of complex argument regurgitations... to be really worth something, it has to be important to you. You have to know God personally, you have to know him as your Father, concerned very much about you. And the good thing is... although people may judge you on what you choose... I promise you (at least until you get married, that is), that in the long run, the only person who will really matter is God himself. It may be hard with other people's criticisms... but take a step back... and think about how God looks on you. That is all that matters. It is all that matters, to listen to him, to be meek and merciful, and to come follow him, and enduring to the end.

May your trials be easier to overcome and go through =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

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Can anyone help me discover the truth of the church without relying on the spirit, or prayer, or even the testimony of others. These have proven so unreliable in my life that they must now be avoided to eliminate the possibility of further pain from doing things that lead me into bad decisions that effect my life in a negative way. Is there another more reliable way to discover the truth of the church?

Okay, no "spirit", "prayer" or "testimony of other's".

So despite your signature quote: how about relying on faith? As Alma compared it to a seed, when planted and nourished it will grow into a tree (truth of the Gospel).

Read Alma 32: My link

So then you have to ask yourself, how do I plant and nourish that seed and then Alma describes how to know if this is a "good" seed or not.

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If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine... That's the test. I recommend getting help from local leadership to do God's will. You can judge by the fruits. Martin Harris, for example, didn't feel worthy to see an angel, so he left and prayed by himself. Praying by himself did not result in seeing an angel and the BoMormon. But when Joseph Smith joined him, he was privileged to be one of the three witnesses. Priesthood is there for a reason, and you can ride their coattails, so to speak.

Let the missionaries and/or Church leadership give you the opportunity to test out God's Church from 1st hand experience.

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(As an aside, that's the biggest problem I have with the type of atheism that states absolutely, "There is no god." It seems to me that it is a proposition that is impossible to prove. I respect agnosticism in that regard for it's comparative intellectual clarity and honesty.)

Funny, that is actually one of the "problems" I have with the LDS faith. How many times does a latter-day saint hear "I know this church is the one and only true church/Joseph Smith was a prophet of god/etc," during any typical Sunday meeting (and it's even worse during fast and testimony meeting.) How are those propositions proved, outside of one's personal feelings on the matter? To me, those propositions are more difficult to "prove" than anything claimed by atheists. I could see your point if it was commonly stated in the LDS faith "I believe", but that is rarely the case....in my experience, it was always "I know...." How does one have an issue with those atheists who claim absolute knowledge while participating in a religion that does exactly the same, while both make claims that are "impossible to prove?"

As for my own brand of atheism, I am certain that there is no god, but I am also well aware that I have not cornered the market on "absolute truth," and thus I am fine stating that I could be wrong regarding my views on atheism.

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Funny, that is actually one of the "problems" I have with the LDS faith. How many times does a latter-day saint hear "I know this church is the one and only true church/Joseph Smith was a prophet of god/etc," during any typical Sunday meeting (and it's even worse during fast and testimony meeting.) How are those propositions proved, outside of one's personal feelings on the matter? To me, those propositions are more difficult to "prove" than anything claimed by atheists. I could see your point if it was commonly stated in the LDS faith "I believe", but that is rarely the case....in my experience, it was always "I know...." How does one have an issue with those atheists who claim absolute knowledge while participating in a religion that does exactly the same, while both make claims that are "impossible to prove?"

As for my own brand of atheism, I am certain that there is no god, but I am also well aware that I have not cornered the market on "absolute truth," and thus I am fine stating that I could be wrong regarding my views on atheism.

May I reiterate He who limits himself to living life by only the five physical senses is living life half blind. Things of the spirit must be sensed by the spirit. The mistake most often made is that it comes clearly and with no effort. One must work at developing it and it is not always clear at first.

I am sorry you do not get the same affirmations they do. However, just because you do not receive those affirmations does not negate the experiences of those who do.

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May I reiterate He who limits himself to living life by only the five physical senses is living life half blind. Things of the spirit must be sensed by the spirit. The mistake most often made is that it comes clearly and with no effort. One must work at developing it and it is not always clear at first.

I am sorry you do not get the same affirmations they do. However, just because you do not receive those affirmations does not negate the experiences of those who do.

Yes, you are right of course.....believers must rely upon additional "senses" in order to "prove" that god exists. This cannot be proven using the five senses known to man (hearing, touch, taste, smell and sight).

I wasn't deriding other's experiences, I just thought it very amusing that a latter-day saint would find it peculiar that an atheist making an "absolute" claim against the existence of god thinks nothing of it when his fellow believers claim that they "know" that god exists. Neither can be proven absolutely, yet the poster finds only the atheists claim as being peculiar?

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I would agree with those who said do the works, follow the commandments and see how it affects your life. That is the only way I would [know] outside of prayer, spirit and others testimony.

They are actually two halves of a single whole, in my opinion. More 'spiritual' experiences, like prayer or being touched by the words of others, can supply us with the faith necessary to pursue a particular course, but, if we don't actually let go and pursue it, we will never really know. It is precisely for this reason that 'faith without works is dead.' Belief is unsustainable if it doesn't hold up under practical application...and even if it's simply never exposed to practical application. If it does perform, however, then it supplies us with more trust and a greater desire to continue.

On this point, I feel exactly the same as Joseph Smith: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself.'

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How does one have an issue with those atheists who claim absolute knowledge while participating in a religion that does exactly the same, while both make claims that are "impossible to prove?"

I wasn't deriding other's experiences, I just thought it very amusing that a latter-day saint would find it peculiar that an atheist making an "absolute" claim against the existence of god thinks nothing of it when his fellow believers claim that they "know" that god exists.

The difference, perhaps, is that a Latter-day Saint who claims he can know God actually possesses an epistemology which allows for such knowledge.

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I just thought it very amusing that a latter-day saint would find it peculiar that an atheist making an "absolute" claim against the existence of god thinks nothing of it when his fellow believers claim that they "know" that god exists. Neither can be proven absolutely, yet the poster finds only the atheists claim as being peculiar?

The issue, as I see it here, is that the atheist has only the lack of sensory evidence as the evidence demonstrating that God does not exist.

I have evidence (subjective, to be sure, but evidence nonetheless) that He does. My evidence outweighs your lack of evidence. I can know what you refuse to know because the evidence does not meet your personal standard.

Lehi

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This cannot be proven using the five senses known to man (hearing, touch, taste, smell and sight).

My friend, Walden... we can't even prove our first five senses work...

...So we make an assumption when we use them too. So it is pretty much as logical to trust your eyes as it is to trust the spirit.

Zany world it is, yah, definitely. But who said the world wasn't weird like that. :P^_^

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My friend, Walden... we can't even prove our first five senses work...

...So we make an assumption when we use them too. So it is pretty much as logical to trust your eyes as it is to trust the spirit.

Zany world it is, yah, definitely. But who said the world wasn't weird like that. :P^_^

I didn't say anything about those senses "working" I just stated that they are the five known senses that can be verified with empirical data.

If all of our senses are just "assumptions" as you argue, then how would you argue that my sense of magic elf detection is not a valid sense. If I told you of my elf experiences and how I sensed these elves, it would have to hold as much validity as your "spirit" sense, since all of us in the end "make an assumption when we use" our senses, as you state. You have a sixth sense that could be called your "spiritual sense"......thus my sixth sense, my "elf" sense must be valid too.

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(As an aside, that's the biggest problem I have with the type of atheism that states absolutely, "There is no god." It seems to me that it is a proposition that is impossible to prove. I respect agnosticism in that regard for it's comparative intellectual clarity and honesty.)

As an atheist, I am by no means an authority on what ALL atheists believe. However, I call myself a non-believer/atheist because I think the evidence for god is just as good as anything else there is no evidence for. We get it: technically there is no way to prove the non-existence of something. However, atheists generally feel that they don't need to claim agnosticism, for the same reason you don't claim agnosticism about the existence of Zeus. Just because you can't prove something DOESN'T exist, doesn't mean you have to be agnostic. So no, I don't think you can prove god doesn't exist. I don't technically you can PROVE anything (as in Cartesian truth wise). I think it's highly unlikely, given that I have seen no evidence.

This has all been explained time and time again.

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The issue, as I see it here, is that the atheist has only the lack of sensory evidence as the evidence demonstrating that God does not exist.

I have evidence (subjective, to be sure, but evidence nonetheless) that He does. My evidence outweighs your lack of evidence. I can know what you refuse to know because the evidence does not meet your personal standard.

Lehi

I have subjective evidence that he doesn't. Wow we could play this game for a while. The other day, I prayed for a million dollars, and I didn't get it.

Once again, you can't prove the non-existence of something. How could you? Have you searched every atom of the universe? Even if you did, it would just show god is smaller than an atom, or outside the universe.

This doesn't mean we have to believe in everything does it?

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As an atheist, I am by no means an authority on what ALL atheists believe. However, I call myself a non-believer/atheist because I think the evidence for god is just as good as anything else there is no evidence for. We get it: technically there is no way to prove the non-existence of something. However, atheists generally feel that they don't need to claim agnosticism, for the same reason you don't claim agnosticism about the existence of Zeus. Just because you can't prove something DOESN'T exist, doesn't mean you have to be agnostic. So no, I don't think you can prove god doesn't exist. I don't technically you can PROVE anything (as in Cartesian truth wise). I think it's highly unlikely, given that I have seen no evidence.

This has all been explained time and time again.

Just for the record, I lean toward Zeus existing. I have had enough experience with the gods of my people (I'm a Celt) that I'm not willing to discount anyone elses. Beyond that, limited evidence for me only means I can say, I don't know. I consider someone's testimony of their experiences to be evidence, unless I have reason to believe they are dishonest. I don't believe there are many dishonest people in the world.

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