"Is BYU's Honor Code Racially Biased?"

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This is, perhaps, one of the worst pieces of trash I have ever read...

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/byus-honor-code-viewed-racially-bias

[bluebell]

I can't speak to any of the accusations in the article, since i've never attended BYU. However, it is interesting that once again, personal responsibility is tossed out the window.

[Messenger]

BYU needs to get rid of the sports. There are far too many things that this introduces to the campus that are just wrong. Everyone is too interested in the money that comes from the sports programs, so it makes Deans, Teachers and Recruiters idiots when it comes to right and wrong. The foot ball players pay the same housing, yet they get their own cafeteria with their own food, sometimes really expensive lobster and steak. Give me a break! Its a church school - are there people that are truly worth more than others?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

BYU needs to get rid of the sports. There are far too many things that this introduces to the campus that are just wrong. Everyone is too interested in the money that comes from the sports programs, so it makes Deans, Teachers and Recruiters idiots when it comes to right and wrong. The foot ball players pay the same housing, yet they get their own cafeteria with their own food, sometimes really expensive lobster and steak. Give me a break! Its a church school - are there people that are truly worth more than others?

Really?!? That is really sad, if true.

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

All I saw in the article was excuse after excuse not to live up to their own commitments.

BTW. If you live off campus or in married student housing on campus. You are still responsible for your own food(At least when I went there).

[USU78]

Seems to me there's a fundamental and far more vicious bigotry involved here than the author of the piece in the OP mentioned, and that is that black athletes have no honor, no self-control, no ability to deny themselves present pleasures, no desire to keep their promises, and insufficient intelligence to understand and appreciate the written word.

Or am I missing something?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Seems to me there's a fundamental and far more vicious bigotry involved here than the author of the piece in the OP mentioned, and that is that black athletes have no honor, no self-control, no ability to deny themselves present pleasures, no desire to keep their promises, and insufficient intelligence to understand and appreciate the written word.

Or am I missing something?

It is the same unspoken bigotry the Liberals have used to cram unsustainable social programs down our throats.

[frankenstein]

Truman G. Madsen tells of a situation with Joseph Smith and a woman who complained to Joseph Smith about gossip she was hearing about herself, Joseph Smith responded "When I hear rumors about myself, I stop and think if there is anything I have done that be of any truth to the rumor"

With that statement and principle from Joseph Smith, lets discuss an accusation from the article, to wit:

"White athletes reportedly break the honor code routinely, but the violations are often covered up because of the Mormon athletes' ability to turn to bishops and church leaders to "repent" and avoid real punishment."

Is there truth to this statement?

What % of black students at BYU are Black, LDS and Athletes?

What % of Black, LDS Athletes have committed violations, but were not expelled because of the "athletes' ability to turn to bishops and church leaders to "repent"

Is a Bishop REQUIRED to report confessions to the Honor Code enforcers?

If a student commits a violations and reports and "repents" to the appropriate Priesthood Authority must that Student report their own actions to the Honor Code enforcers?

The numbers provided even if off by 10% still show disparate impact a on a minority group. The fall 2010 enrollment at BYU is 29794, there are 176 Black students that is 0.5907229643552393% of the total student population at BYU, yet, this 0.6% makes up the majority of expulsions due to Honor Code violations. In the public sector such numbers would give rise to a presumption of unequal treatment.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

Such a small population base doesn't allow for much SPECULATION either way. It is equivalent to "All Indians walk in single file. I saw one do it once".

[Messenger]

Really?!? That is really sad, if true.

Very true. They put the on campus foot ball players in Helaman Halls in one building (I cant remember the name) and the cafeteria was closed to everyone but them - which was remodeled to have quite nice amenities, much more like a restaurant than an BYU cafeteria. Also, it had a completely different menu - not nutritionally different, but much more expensive food – with Lobster being the strangest thing on the menu there. We all got to eat like second class citizens with mystery meat in dingy room built on the 40s – yet we paid the same. It never made sense to me as a convert. Yet the Life Members just simply accepted it.

[frankenstein]

frankenstein:

Such a small population base doesn't allow for much SPECULATION either way. It is equivalent to "All Indians walk in single file. I saw one do it once".

yes, one can deny anything one wants with stats. For example, A young man says "I killed that cop because I was listening to the song cop killer and I wanted to be like Ice-T and kill a cop" the number of copies of the album compared the number of incidents, statistically mean the killing which was admittedly connect to the album never happened.

I took the numbers from the BYU Demographics website. The number violations from the article could be gathered from the news that the expulsions make. That Black Students make up less than 1% of the total population at BYU does not nullify the very real evidence that Black Atheletes are dismissed at an overwhelming disproportionate rate.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

yes, one can deny anything one wants with stats. For example, A young man says "I killed that cop because I was listening to the song cop killer and I wanted to be like Ice Cube and kill a cop" the number of copies of the album compared the number of incidents, statistically mean the killing which was admittedly connect to the album never happened.

I took the numbers from the BYU Demographics website. The number violations from the article could be gathered from the news that the expulsions make. That Black Students make up less than 1% of the total population at BYU does not nullify the very real evidence that Black Atheletes are dismissed at an overwhelming disproportionate rate.

Ice-T rapped "Cop Killer".

[bluebell]

yes, one can deny anything one wants with stats. For example, A young man says "I killed that cop because I was listening to the song cop killer and I wanted to be like Ice-T and kill a cop" the number of copies of the album compared the number of incidents, statistically mean the killing which was admittedly connect to the album never happened.

I took the numbers from the BYU Demographics website. The number violations from the article could be gathered from the news that the expulsions make. That Black Students make up less than 1% of the total population at BYU does not nullify the very real evidence that Black Atheletes are dismissed at an overwhelming disproportionate rate.

Do all such expulsions make the news? I wonder where the data for expulsions came from?

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

I think you'd need a much larger population base for any such Speculations.

In theory it is possible to get a accurate representative sample of the whole US electorate by looking at just one middle aged, middle class, Catholic, white woman in the middle of Iowa. But functionally that is very hard to do, and opens up more problems than mere representation.

Having said that. I do believe that BYU should/could do a better job in addressing socio-ethnic expectations, especially in Church non-members, in its athletics departments, before a student is enrolled.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Bottom line... Keep your amigo in your pants and you won't get kicked out... white, black, yellow, red, green, blue, periwinkle, or whatever color classification you want to put yourself into.

[mtomm]

Deseret News Story on the Deadspin story

[frankenstein]

Do all such expulsions make the news? I wonder where the data for expulsions came from?

all discipline period, or just for athletes, I doubt it.

From DNS:

According to the story, since 1993, of the 70 student-athletes suspended for breaking the honor code, 54 of them (80 percent) were minorities and 41 of them (60 percent) were black. Deadspin makes the case that BYU's honor code is racially biased and it quotes former Cougars who harshly criticize the school for the way it recruits athletes, and the way the honor code is enforced.

[frankenstein]

frankenstein:

I think you'd need a much larger population base for any such Speculations.

not really, because the population base provided is all that concern is about.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

You can not get a truly representative sample with such a sample base. It is equal to "All Indians walk in single file. I saw one do it once". Your base in this example is just one, at one time. It is mere speculation that all Indians do it.

[frankenstein]

Deseret News Story on the Deadspin story

kind of a hackjob article. the DNS does not make a counter article, the DNS post well uses second hand character assassination and personal opinions of those who have not done the same type of investigation as Deadpspin.

DNS second hand character assination: "Deadspin article "gives forum to disgruntled former Cougars."

Is like someone stating as truth the following: Ed Decker hates mormons, therefore Ed Deck will say nothing that is truthful about Mormons.

Brad Rock's personal opinion of the matter is of little import as well, when he does the same research as Deadspin he can provide a informed article on the matter.... DNS could do the same.

[Mordecai]

The majority of black students accuse BYU of playing a good old "bait and switch."

And the majority of purported majorities aren't majorities at all but mere figments of someone's imagination.

[frankenstein]

frankenstein:

You can not get a truly representative sample with such a sample base. It is equal to "All Indians walk in single file. I saw one do it once". Your base in this example is just one, at one time. It is mere speculation that all Indians do it.

that is not the same as saying "Of the 70 students disciplined 80% were black. Black make up 0.502% of the student population"

The overwhelming disproportion is very much a cause for concern.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

It means nothing outside of the raw number.

Should BYU adopt a less stringent enforcement of its Honor Code for its Black student athletes, than the regular student body as stated in the article?

Or should BYU adopt more stringent enforcement of its Honor Code for all its student athletes, as they are very visible role models of BYU?

Or is the Honor Code about right?

As with my example of the woman in Iowa, would you be satisfied if she were the only one allowed to vote?

[frankenstein]

frankenstein:

It means nothing outside of the raw number.

Should BYU adopt a less stringent enforcement of its Honor Code for its Black student athletes, than the regular student body as stated in the article?

Or should BYU adopt more stringent enforcement of its Honor Code for all its student athletes, as they are very visible role models of BYU?

Or is the Honor Code about right?

As with my example of the woman in Iowa, would you be satisfied if she were the only one allowed to vote?

your examples do not show much if anything.

Do the numbers provided grounds that BYU should do some kind of internal investigation, Yes, the numbers do.

Are the concerned about repentance of LDS white students a legit concern, I will put my money on yes.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

Simple numbers mean nothing. It is the application of those numbers that give them meaning.

Are all the people in prisons today guilty? Probably not, but we don't let them all go either.

The numbers may or may not. No man made organization is perfect, and BYU is man made whatever the truth claims of the Church. But the simple fact remains that the Honor Code at BYU was there long before any of those athletes decided to go there. These young men, and they're all young to me, were/are adults, and are responsible for living up to their commitments. Could BYU do a better job of informing nonmembers of the Honor Code of BYU, BEFORE they commit to BYU? Probably. However I was taught at a very young age to read, and understand, any contract BEFORE I signed it.