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Godhood in premortal existence


inquiringmind

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I read somewhere that Jesus attained Godhood in His premortal life.

Was that before or after the great council?

Did He attain it, or was He born with it (by virtue of being the eldest Son)?

Well he accepted the opportunity to come to this earth and be the excempler for all mankind in his baptism.suffering,atonement and ressurection so that we may all have that opportunity to become as the father.. {although none will ever equal God} we can become as him as the son did.....but until all these things occured; he was not "a God".. he voluntered to suffer things {vicariously} none of us would have voluntered to do. :P

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Great Council?

From Abraham 3

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

24And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26And they who keep their first bestate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have dglory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

John Welch has a brief discussion on recent research in to the Hebrew sod.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=772

And here is an early Christian account:

http://www.thinlyveiled.com/Abbaton2.2MB.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

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What is the definition of or parameters of "God" or "Godhood" that you are laboring under? Unless you answer that first, to yourself, then you cannot answer whether or not the premortal Jesus fulfills those parameters.

Please realize that much of our ideas, concepts, assumptions and even doctrine of God (even still pervading the assumptions of LDS) are a legacy to us from the last 2000 years, and the thousands of years before that, through the mists of mortal time and history. In other words, our idea of Godhood is still very Greek (meaning, among other things, that God is ABSOLUTE in every supernatural quality and of some other fundamental essence than mankind). This supernatural-ness and otherness-from-his-creation is what traditionally defines God and godliness in Greek philosophy.

I'm not sure the scriptures bear that assumption out, and it certainly doesn't correspond with my understanding of "God" nor the relationship of Jesus Christ to "Godness".

Having said that, the short answer is that the premortal Jesus was God (as I understand it), at least from a chronological point previous to the foundations or plan of this particular earth. What do I base that on? Several things, among which are: 1) God as a family heritage, in which case we are all gods; 2) His spiritual progression toward the light was of a degree that he would never sin, that progression being effect by a process of??????; and 3) God as a calling or office, which call was extended to him and accepted, of course.

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To me, as far as I know, a "God" is someone that has attained a certain amount of progression spiritually to where they merit exaltation in pre-existence. Or it is someone that has been resurrected and has received exaltation. Even if someone has calling and election in mortality, I don't think they can be called a "god."

I read somewhere that Jesus attained Godhood in His premortal life.

Was that before or after the great council?

Did He attain it, or was He born with it (by virtue of being the eldest Son)?

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I read somewhere that Jesus attained Godhood in His premortal life.

Was that before or after the great council?

Did He attain it, or was He born with it (by virtue of being the eldest Son)?

Straight up, I don't think there is much which is doctrinal on this. It is doctrinal that he attained Godhood in his premortal life.

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Straight up, I don't think there is much which is doctrinal on this. It is doctrinal that he attained Godhood in his premortal life.

What about D&C 93:

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. source

It sure sound like Christ was "the Son" before birth, but he was not "the Father" until he overcame in this world. I would agree that Christ had his calling and election made sure before He came to earth.

Richard

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What about D&C 93:

It sure sound like Christ was "the Son" before birth, but he was not "the Father" until he overcame in this world. I would agree that Christ had his calling and election made sure before He came to earth.

Richard

I take that as meaning he moved from grace to grace here in mortality- slowing learning who he really was.

Like I said, nothing doctrinal that I know of.

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Great Council?

I meant the Heavenly council. (where Jesus volunteered to be our Savior.)

Did He already posses His Godhood then?

Did He have it as a privilege of birth (as the firsborn of God's spirit children), or did "attain" it somehow?

What about D&C 93

That's talking about His earthly life, isn't it?

What does scripture tell us about His pre-existence?

Does it tell us anything about how and when He got to be God?

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Did He have [Godhood] as a privilege of birth (as the firsborn of God's spirit children), or did "attain" it somehow?

A bit of both.

As the Firstborn of all Creation, Jesus was the Heir. However, there is no guarantee, as far as I know, and He had to secure His position based on His dedication and obedience to the laws we all had in pre-mortality.

He was the most obedient, the most advanced of all of God's children, and became the "God of this Earth" (as opposed to the god of this world, i.e., Satan) by virtue of His progression.

He became the Great Jehovah, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, and earned the right to redeem us, and to become our Savior.

He advanced to the point where sin was literally not a part of His character, that even the Veil of Forgetfulness did not change that nature and desire to serve Father.

He was ordained to the Godhood He attained in the premortal realms, and with the keys of the Priesthood thus obtained, did order the elements of the universe to become a suitable place for us to dwell and finish our advancement, so we, too, could become like Father.

Lehi

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He was the most obedient, the most advanced of all of God's children, and became the "God of this Earth" (as opposed to the god of this world, i.e., Satan) by virtue of His progression.

He became the Great Jehovah, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, and earned the right to redeem us, and to become our Savior.

He advanced to the point where sin was literally not a part of His character, that even the Veil of Forgetfulness did not change that nature and desire to serve Father.

He was ordained to the Godhood He attained in the premortal realms, and with the keys of the Priesthood thus obtained, did order the elements of the universe to become a suitable place for us to dwell and finish our advancement

I haven't read that, is that in the scriptures?

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I read somewhere that Jesus attained Godhood in His premortal life.

Was that before or after the great council?

Did He attain it, or was He born with it (by virtue of being the eldest Son)?

I agree that it is not specified in doctrine exactly when, but that he did attain it prior to mortality (at least by the time he was the Creator under the Father's direction).

Personally speaking, I defined him as always being God because I see him always possessing that attribute that allowed him to be sinless and thus serve the role of Savior and Redeemer for mankind. I believe it was that attribute (or group of attributes) that was the reason that God the Father chose him to be the Firstborn of his spirit children, a role which was understood to eventually lead to his calling at the Heavenly Council in the Atonement process.

Pure speculation here, but in essence this would mean to me that if there had been no God the Father, that Jesus would still have been able to attain all the attributes that the Father possesses on his own unlike us who need God's help to do so. However, Jesus also chose to submit his will to the Father's thus becoming the Son.

I don't believe there is anything in LDS doctrine that precludes any of these conclusions, but also nothing that requires them. My reasoning is based on trying to understand what caused Jesus to be chosen as the Firstborn along with some personal interpretations of what is meant by eternity and how that interacts with God.

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I haven't read that, is that in the scriptures?

Not in a single (or minor list of) scripture.

I get this from the quasi-official tome, Jesus the Christ, by Apostle James E. Talmadge, written and published at the request of the First Presidency.

Here are a couple of extracts.

In that august council of the angels and the Gods, the Being who later was born in flesh as Mary's Son, Jesus, took prominent part, and there was He ordained of the Father to be the Savior of mankind. As to time, the term being used in the sense of all duration past, this is our earliest record of the Firstborn among the sons of God; to us who read, it marks the beginning of the written history of Jesus the Christ.
The passage [John 1:1] is simple, precise and unambiguous. We may reasonably give to the phrase "In the beginning" the same meaning as attaches thereto in the first line of Genesis; and such signification must indicate a time antecedent to the earliest stages of human existence upon the earth. That the Word is Jesus Christ, who was with the Father in that beginning and who was Himself invested with the powers and rank of Godship, and that He came into the world and dwelt among men, are definitely affirmed. These statements are corroborated through a revelation given to Moses, in which he was permitted to see many of the creations of God, and to hear the voice of the Father with respect to the things that had been made: "And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth."
We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One.
As heretofore shown in another connection, the Father operated in the work of creation through the Son, who thus became the executive through whom the will, commandment, or word of the Father was put into effect. It is with incisive appropriateness therefore, that the Son, Jesus Christ, is designated by the apostle John as the Word; or as declared by the Father "the word of my power. The part taken by Jesus Christ in the creation, a part so prominent as to justify our calling Him the Creator, is set forth in many scriptures. The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews refers in this wise distinctively to the Father and the Son as separate though associated Beings: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." Paul is even more explicit in his letter to the Colossians, wherein, speaking of Jesus the Son, he says: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist." And here let be repeated the testimony of John, that by the Word, who was with God, and who was God even in the beginning, all things were made; "and without him was not anything made that was made."

That the Christ who was to come was in reality God the Creator was revealed in plainness to the prophets on the western hemisphere. Samuel, the converted Lamanite, in preaching to the unbelieving Nephites justified his testimony as follows: "And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things, from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name."

Jehovah is the Anglicized rendering of the Hebrew, Yahveh or Jahveh, signifying the Self-existent One, or The Eternal. This name is generally rendered in our English version of the Old Testament as LORD, printed in capitals. The Hebrew, Ehyeh, signifying I Am, is related in meaning and through derivation with the term Yahveh or Jehovah; and herein lies the significance of this name by which the Lord revealed Himself to Moses when the latter received the commission to go into Egypt and deliver the children of Israel from bondage: "Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."In the succeeding verse the Lord declares Himself to be "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." While Moses was in Egypt, the Lord further revealed Himself, saying "I am the LORD: and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." The central fact connoted by this name, I Am, or Jehovah, the two having essentially the same meaning, is that of existence or duration that shall have no end, and which, judged by all human standards of reckoning, could have had no beginning; the name is related to such other titles as Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Other sources have helped lead me to this conclusion, as well.

Lehi

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This speculation of Jesus existing alone kind of bothers me. Even Jesus needed Heavenly Father's help to make it through his mortal life. His life was to constantly do his Father's will. And if there was no God, then we are not, as it says in the Book of Mormon. But I understand what you were trying to say - that Jesus was the Eternal God before his advent in mortality.

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This speculation of Jesus existing alone kind of bothers me. Even Jesus needed Heavenly Father's help to make it through his mortal life. His life was to constantly do his Father's will. And if there was no God, then we are not, as it says in the Book of Mormon. But I understand what you were trying to say - that Jesus was the Eternal God before his advent in mortality.

He needed the Father's help in this life because he submitted himself to the Father's Will and became as man. Does this mean if he had chosen another way where he didn't set aside some of his eternal attributes for a time that he wouldn't have been able to make it through a mortality? I don't think we are given any information on whether or not that was possible. We are told that God's way is the best way for man to progress and I would assume that means for Christ as well, but I don't see that as excluding the possibilities of other ways....at least for someone with the power and intelligence that was likely inherent eternally in my view in the Firstborn.

I myself am more bothered by the idea that Jesus followed God because that was the only way for him to 'make it', so to speak, rather than he did it through a wiling and completely voluntary submission of his self and his own will to the Father's. In other words, while he knew he could have manage on his own to progress to greater power, knowledge and glory, he desired instead to be a part of the Father's work thus benefiting more than just himself as well as bringing glory to the Father.

An analogy would be along the lines of someone asking me to marry them because they can't live without me as opposed to asking me to marry them because they want to live with me forever....I don't really want to be needed by someone that badly, but I do want to be wanted excessively. :P

Again, I am not claiming this is in LDS doctrine at all, just personal speculation. I have no issue with someone else thinking it's total bunk.

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I read somewhere that Jesus attained Godhood in His premortal life.

Was that before or after the great council?

Did He attain it, or was He born with it (by virtue of being the eldest Son)?

Now the scriptures are not 100% clear here, there is plenty of gaps, but what we know is that Jehovah (Jesus Christ in pre-existence) made everything spiritually under the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood. That Jehovah led us in creating the world after the Great Council in Heaven, that all of us who were aiding Christ in the creation of the world, were called Gods at this time according to the Book of Abraham. We also know that the Israelites are referred to as Gods several times in the OT and the Ancient Saints are called heir's of God and joint heir's of Christ.

I these cases I think that the use of term gods refers to our ultimate potential to achieve exaltation, it is not saying that we were gods in the pre existence or in mortal life, only that we have the potential to become gods. This could also apply to Christ, I have no idea how this works with him as our creator and does that mean that he wasn't always a member of the Godhead?

My personal interpretation is that Christ was a god from his birth, that as the Firstborn spirit child he had a special birthright that made him a member of the Godhead. Now this is based on personal belief and a lot of it is based on personal theology not scripture, so it can all be incorrect. It can also be argued that Christ didn't become a member of the Godhead till he was chosen as our savior, or even that he wasn't a member of the Godhead till he was transfigured on the Mount of Transfiguration. There is a lot of questions about Christ and his role as our creator and second member of the Godhead that remain unanswered, in time as we are ready these mysteries of God will be revealed.

Like I said the scriptures are far from complete, we still have many things to be revealed as we are ready for them that will give us a clearer picture of the creation and the nature of the Godhead.

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