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Believing to knowing.


Rivers

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D&C 46:13-14

To some it is given by the aHoly Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

How does one go about transitioning from having the gift of believing to having the gift of knowing. Can anybody have the gift of knowing?

I think there are many in the church who fall in the believing category. Sometimes testimonies given by others are very convincing and hearing the testimony from somebody else is what a lot of people get by with. How important is it to know rather than only believing?

And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

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D&C 46:13-14

How does one go about transitioning from having the gift of believing to having the gift of knowing. Can anybody have the gift of knowing?

I think there are many in the church who fall in the believing category. Sometimes testimonies given by others are very convincing and hearing the testimony from somebody else is what a lot of people get by with. How important is it to know rather than only believing?

And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

I go along with others who say it is a continuum of layers of "certainty". "I believe" connotes much less certainty than "I know", and that is the only difference.

Essentially, I think it is a subjective judgment about how certain you are about a certain proposition.

Some believe that "I know" can properly only apply to true principles- but then you have the whole problem of defining what "truth" is, which is not a trivial problem.

So I have no problem with someone saying "I know the moon is made of green cheese" even though it is not. Others would say that it is impossible to "know" that because the moon is not in fact made of green cheese.

But of course they are wrong. :P

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And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

Believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is the Christ, is the preparatory step to knowing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is the Christ.

Just like the Aaronic Priesthood is the preparatory priesthood, believing that Jesus is the Son of God is the first steps towards conversion to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. When you believe that Jesus is the Son of God you will have the faith to become baptized and start on the path to exaltation. The problem is that a belief isn't fail proof one can lose a belief (we all believed in Santa Clause at one time but most adults do not believe that Santa Clause brings them presents at Christmas once they grow up) it can fade or be disproven, we can lose faith in a belief. A belief is based on something we cannot see, but that we can only feel something that is unseen but we accept as being real and is happening or will happen. For example when you work you believe that at the end of the week you will be paid for your labor, you have no guarantee that your employer will have the money to pay you at the end of the week but you trust that we will pay you if you do your work.

To know is something completely different, to know is to have undeniable physical evidence that something is true. Moses knew that Jehovah was real, Joseph Smith knew that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are two separate personages, Joseph Smith also knew that the Book of Mormon was true. The brother of Jarad, knew that Jesus was the Christ because he saw him with is own eyes.

To know that Jesus is the Son of God is to witness through a vision or other manifestation Christ in all his glory. When you know that Jesus is the Son of God, this happens because you actually witness him you can see his power and majesty as he stands in your presence. To know that Jesus is the Son of God has been the gift of many prophets who have seen the savior face to face, it is a very powerful gift of the spirit and one that very few receive. It can equally be a curse if you should deny that Christ is the Son of God after witnessing that he is with your own eyes, you sin against the Holy Ghost and commit a sin that cannot be forgiven.

This is why not everyone is allowed to have this physical knowledge, to receive it and then reject Christ holds a serious and terrible consequence.

Eventually all will have the knowledge that Christ is the Son of God, because the scriptures tell us that all will bow before him and that every tongue will confess (Isa 45:23, Philippians 2:10, Romans 14:11).

So if we do not gain this knowledge in this life do not be dismayed, we shall all receive it in due time as the Lord wills for each of us!

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D&C 46:13-14

How does one go about transitioning from having the gift of believing to having the gift of knowing. Can anybody have the gift of knowing?

I think there are many in the church who fall in the believing category. Sometimes testimonies given by others are very convincing and hearing the testimony from somebody else is what a lot of people get by with. How important is it to know rather than only believing?

And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

Alma 32
:

26 Now, as I said concerning faith
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I find this a very interesting subject.

I don't think anyone knows for sure. The reason for this is that faith or belief is at the heart of it and always will be. What I mean by this is that someone may say they know the church is true because the spirit witnessed to them. Let's assume that is true, the spirit did witness to them. What they know for sure is that the spirit witnessed to them - but they believe the spirit was telling them the truth. It is technically possible that the spirit could be lying. Admittedly this is unlikely but still a possibility however remote. But the spirit does not lie - it says so in the scriptures. But remember the scriptures were inspired by that same spirit and he's hardly going to say he does lie. So it is a circular argument.

However, we must not despair because we are saved by our faith. We are required to have faith and not perfect knowledge. In fact perfect knowledge tends to work against the plan of salvation and that is why we forgot our knowldge when we were born into this life. We are to live by faith.

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. . . we must not despair because we are saved by our faith. We are required to have faith and not perfect knowledge. In fact perfect knowledge tends to work against the plan of salvation and that is why we forgot our knowldge when we were born into this life. We are to live by faith.

I agree; excellent point.

Over the years I have noticed that the use of know in fast-day testimonies has declined. I think members have gradually come to realize that know in a faith-based context is inappropriate. Those who say they know are using the word in an altered/corrupted form--one not found in any dictionary of which I am aware. Obviously, they are free to do that, and I certainly don't condemn them for it. If they are comfortable with it, and if it strengthens their faith, bless 'em.

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And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

The gift of knowing is the result of doing something with the gift of believing and experiencing the results. Since it is based on experience, it relies on forward movement, which is a function of exercising faith.

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So I have no problem with someone saying "I know the moon is made of green cheese" even though it is not. Others would say that it is impossible to "know" that because the moon is not in fact made of green cheese.

Do you have a problem with somebody asserting that they know that the proposition 'The moon is made of green cheese' is true for them and true for you? Is the following proposition, sincerely asserted by somebody, true?

P1: The proposition 'the moon is made of green cheese' is true for me and true for mfbukowski.

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D&C 46:13-14

How does one go about transitioning from having the gift of believing to having the gift of knowing. Can anybody have the gift of knowing?

I think there are many in the church who fall in the believing category. Sometimes testimonies given by others are very convincing and hearing the testimony from somebody else is what a lot of people get by with. How important is it to know rather than only believing?

And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

I think this may very well speak of those who are warned against denying the Holy Ghost, or becoming sons of perdition. Think Apostles and Prophets who are given a greater measure of the HG, and to deny that is to deny Him, sinning against the greater light.

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Do you have a problem with somebody asserting that they know that the proposition 'The moon is made of green cheese' is true for them and true for you? Is the following proposition, sincerely asserted by somebody, true?

P1: The proposition 'the moon is made of green cheese' is true for me and true for mfbukowski.

I can imagine unusual conditions under which P1 could be true, but further definition would be required.

For example if P1 is taken to mean something like "I agree with mfbukowski's belief that the moon is made of green cheese", it could be true.

Specifically I think that meaning depends on context and "language games" or intended uses of language, and that there is a category distinction between subjective statements (grammatically, most first person statements) and objective statements (grammatically, mostly second and third person statements)

Grammatically second and third person statements tend to be verifiable by more than one person, and therefore "objective"

So a statement like "The moon is made of green cheese" is grammatically third person and purportedly makes a statement about a certain state of affairs which is observable by many people. One could send any number of rockets to the moon and sample the surface, and verify objectively (because it is replicable) that the moon is in fact not made of green cheese, rendering the original proposition false.

However, if one says "I believe the moon is made of green cheese" suddenly that magic word "I" coupled with "believe" throws that statement into an entire new universe of discourse which is NOT replicable by objective observation. I could look into your brain and never know if you really believe that or not (see my siggy).

You could be lying, making a joke, deluded, or just weird to believe that, but you could be totally certain that in fact the moon is in fact made of green cheese, and no matter what I did, it would be very difficult for me to know if the statement was true or false.

You could say "I know (meaning "I am certain")that the moon is made of green cheese" and be totally wrong by objective standards, and yet the statement as it stands would be "true".

It is true that you are mistakenly certain that the moon is made of green cheese.

So for me, the statement "I know the church is true" is a statement about my subjective mental state, having nothing to do with anything observable to anyone else. I can be absolutely certain that the church is "true" (whatever that actually means to me personally) and that statement about my personal mental state can be true for me and if you said the same thing it may or may not be true.

Such statements have nothing to do with the state of anything other than my personal beliefs.

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Keep in mind that the WORD, not faith, is compared unto a seed

More precisely, faith in the Word. If no faith was exercised in the first place, there would be no growth. The important point of Alma 32 to me is that, essentially by following something very close to the scientific method, belief over time becomes "knowledge"

It demonstrates a progression of certainty from belief to "knowledge".

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The gift of knowing is the result of doing something with the gift of believing and experiencing the results. Since it is based on experience, it relies on forward movement, which is a function of exercising faith.

The important point of Alma 32 to me is that, essentially by following something very close to the scientific method, belief over time becomes "knowledge"

Precisely.

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D&C 46:13-14

How does one go about transitioning from having the gift of believing to having the gift of knowing. Can anybody have the gift of knowing?

I think there are many in the church who fall in the believing category. Sometimes testimonies given by others are very convincing and hearing the testimony from somebody else is what a lot of people get by with. How important is it to know rather than only believing?

And what exactly is the difference between knowing and believing?

You know once the Holy Ghost has born witness to your spirit (not through any of your physical senses) that it is true. In John 14:26, the Lord refers to the comforter (the Holy Spirit), who the Father would send to "teach all things." To me, this implies that anyone can be taught... that is, anyone can know if they will seek. Seek and ye shall find. Once you have obtained the witness of the Holy Spirit, you will know the truth just as surely as if you had witnessed it though sight and hearing.

Some prophets also referred to the "Second Comforter," who is Jesus Christ Himself. Some people actually will see Jesus, and have this "Second Comforter." They know.

As for the importance of knowing versus believing, I think that Jesus answered that question when he appeared to Doubting Thomas and told him that he was blessed because he believed after seeing, but even more blessed were those who believed without seeing. Those who can believe without knowing might actually be more blessed... they certainly are exercising more faith, which is a foundational saving principle.

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