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Families in the Spirit World


Questing Beast

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@Maidservant: That is very anthropomorphic "heaven", i.e. "patterned after the world where we [ ] live."

What if your brother was a homosexual in inclination if not action? What if "marriage" to him was not any sort of attraction in the hereafter? What if marriage produces no children? Are various family individuals to accept that "bonding" is impossible because each of us lacks experiences common to the rest?

I cannot place much importance upon any ingredients that make up mortality. The variability is just too great. And Mormonism in the temple is too singular to appeal to everyone or even MOST individuals. I cannot recall how many times I have watched couples return to activity in the Church, gain their temple endowments, seal everyone together, then drop out again; sometimes ending in divorce as well. It just isn't for everyone. And to interpret these repeated scenarios of disenchantment as some kind of failure to be "valiant" is just not right, imho. The people we are talking about are good people, even after they leave the Church. The divorces that occur are the inevitable fallout that comes from one of the spouses dogmatically gripping the doctrine of "worthiness", and judging their disenchanted spouse by that yardstick. Then the religion is a dividing force and not a uniting one; it then results in the very opposite of "families can be together forever": surely an ironic outcome.

If family endures it is because of love and affection wider than eternity. Nothing else is required. And nothing less (no amount of empirical ordinances/sealings) will make it real.

My present cosmology says that the entire human species is one family; one ever-increasing immortal family. But not father and mother with descending offspring: rather, we are all siblings, children (manifestations, really) of the very same "God". We come into the "World" with our first aware thought, and we live forever: forever learning to love Joy above any other state of mind or being. The "work and the glory" is, simply, to recognize "God" in all things, beginning with ourselves. Joy saves a soul from the wish for annihilation....

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Honestly, I think it's possible that the Church has gone a little overboard on the whole "families are forever" thing.

In the end, our best and closest family members are like really, really good friends. Depending on our ages and the conditions our families live in, we may have 15 or 20 years of actually living together, but it's highly unusual for us to spend even 20-30% of our lives with our "families" (i.e. parents and siblings). Over the course of our lifetimes, we make dozens of friends, and pick up a spouse or two. Then, sometime before our 110th birthday, we die.

So when we find ourselves on the "other side", what does it mean to be part of a family with someone? What does it mean to see a spirit and know that they were a brother or sister to us on Earth? Will we have that much more to talk about? Will we enjoy hanging out with them more there than we did here? While some siblings get along swimmingly, others just don't have that much in common, or don't like each other at all.

And then we find ourselves suddenly among the spirits of all those who lived in all ages of the Earth. While I might enjoy chatting with my sister, I might also really enjoy talking with someone who lived in ancient Rome, or among the Nephites. From an eternal perspective, the more important thing probably won't be recognizing the people with similar DNA, but the ability to make and keep friends. Unless God puts people in the lesser kingdoms into some kind of solitary confinement, they'll probably just make new friends, and the people they knew on Earth will eventually be distant memories (just as friends on Earth become over our short lifetimes).

I'm not sure we really understand what a Temple Sealing accomplishes. There is scriptural support for the idea that things that occurred in mortality will not be remembered in the eternities. So your statement about people becoming distant memories may very will be accurate. I suspect that part of what sealing does is to seal up our memories, devotions, affections, etc., so that those things do not fade away and become distant memories.

It is also difficult to reconcile different statements about families being incomplete because someone failed to keep their covenants with other statements that unrighteous children will be saved, after paying the price for the sins, because of the righteousness of their parents.

There is soooooooo much we don't understand. And what little we do, we probably misapply. :P

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Christianity for the Christians, then. You surely can't invalidate a Muslim's experience? or a Buddhists? Etc. It is high arrogance, bigotry even, to assert that everyone else must change to accept your religious paradigm. "God" has not resolved the issue of "Who is right and who is wrong" by giving any revelation that trumps all the rest.

In your opinion!

Where are you getting this stuff? "High arrogance and bigotry"??

We believe we are right, and that after all the evidence is in- ie: after we have visited the spirit world and hung around a bit and figured out how things work everyone will "get it" and see it the "way it is".

No bigotry, no arrogance.

It is a world view, and we believe it is right. So what?

Also you are confusing "salvation" and "exaltation".

All will be "saved" in some sense or another except the Sons of Perdition- and it's awfully hard to qualify for that.

Can you hang out with your family in the spirit world and know who they are? I see no problem with that in LDS theology at all. In fact in 99% of the funerals we attend it is said that "Mother is now with her family, meeting and greeting her loved ones" etc. Obviously Mother is not yet exalted if she died three days ago, and is in the spirit world

The question is: can one be EXALTED and have the kind of life Heavenly Father has AFTER the resurrection- not in the spirit world.

Remember that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ".

So putting this all together, we perhaps may know our family in the spirit world, maybe yes, maybe no. After we hang out for a while and talk to the missionaries or whatever, we see the truth of the way things are. Most will accept the gospel, but ALL will eventually confess that Jesus is the Christ.

Those who do, can have their proxy work done if they want to and go on to the Celestial Kingdom if and when they are ready, and perhaps become exalted and have spirit children after they are resurrected.

Those who don't go to the CK because they don't want to live by that law, won't, and they may know their family members but will not be sealed to them, or have spirit children.

So where's the bigotry and arrogance?

It's what we believe- and we think we are right. It's a world view. Do you want us to believe what we think is WRONG so that we are not "arrogant"?

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So where's the bigotry and arrogance?

It's what we believe- and we think we are right. It's a world view. Do you want us to believe what we think is WRONG so that we are not "arrogant"?

Only when you step away from a religious dogma can you see it clearly. Living it, believing it, dogmatically, makes an outsider's view of the religion impossible to see.

Mormonism is one of the most dogmatic religions on the planet. It is a polite kind of bigotry: "we" are right, everyone else is mistaken, but eventually they'll see their error. To any outsider that is arrogance.

Imho, ALL religions are manmade and equally valid or invalid depending on how they conduct themselves toward everyone else. Ecumenism is the only correct form of conduct to nonbelievers. There is no resolution to an argument over which religion is "right" and which is "wrong": only principles of justice can determine if religious behavior is allowable. And only an ecumenical outlook prevents doctrines of exclusivity from taking hold upon our thinking. Of course you believe Mormonism is THE truth that all must eventually embrace, or be cast into lesser realms of "glory" (or even hell). It's the oldest form of religious bigotry in the world. It starts out polite. But over time it morphs into the "Hebrew" kind of exclusive "chosen people" status that plagues the Middle East today. And that religious mentality IS what powers the believers who resort to terrorism. The seeds are the "us and them" attitude. And then it slowly grows into the actions we used to see in Christians on crusade. Muslims on jihad are still "medieval" in their religious thinking. Mormons are still too new at this "we are the chosen people" assertion to be a danger to anyone, yet....

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Only when you step away from a religious dogma can you see it clearly. Living it, believing it, dogmatically, makes an outsider's view of the religion impossible to see.

Mormonism is one of the most dogmatic religions on the planet. It is a polite kind of bigotry: "we" are right, everyone else is mistaken, but eventually they'll see their error. To any outsider that is arrogance.

Imho, ALL religions are manmade and equally valid or invalid depending on how they conduct themselves toward everyone else. Ecumenism is the only correct form of conduct to nonbelievers. There is no resolution to an argument over which religion is "right" and which is "wrong": only principles of justice can determine if religious behavior is allowable. And only an ecumenical outlook prevents doctrines of exclusivity from taking hold upon our thinking. Of course you believe Mormonism is THE truth that all must eventually embrace, or be cast into lesser realms of "glory" (or even hell). It's the oldest form of religious bigotry in the world. It starts out polite. But over time it morphs into the "Hebrew" kind of exclusive "chosen people" status that plagues the Middle East today. And that religious mentality IS what powers the believers who resort to terrorism. The seeds are the "us and them" attitude. And then it slowly grows into the actions we used to see in Christians on crusade. Muslims on jihad are still "medieval" in their religious thinking. Mormons are still too new at this "we are the chosen people" assertion to be a danger to anyone, yet....

Dude you have no idea.

I was an atheist when I found Mormonism. I thought that Mormons worshiped some saints who were Indians- and those Indians were from the latter days.

Of course, I knew I was right as an atheist, but I worshiped humanism, and here these guys said that we humans could become like God, and that in fact God was human. Sounded pretty good to me!

Nobody believes what they believe is wrong- the reason they believe it is because they think it is right!

You really should not stereotype or even think you have a clue what others think- because you don't. That, my friend, is bigotry- and you have the nerve to come here and tell me what I thought about the church before I joined?

Please note that you are more dogmatic in your condemnation of Mormon "bigotry" than Mormons ever are. Sorry that we don't see it like you do- because of course YOU are the one who is "right" here, and we are all just stupid provincial boobs.

The irony really is laughable!

I actually like a lot of things you say- but man, are you off base on this one!

It reminds me of the 60's when we were all in our long hair and bell bottoms and tie-died shirts, being non-conformist by wearing a uniform.

We, like you, were being dogmatic about being non-dogmatic.

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