Doctrinal Clarification Needed Part II

[LDS Guy 1986]

So, to open a whole new can of worms (since I have nothing better to do), tonight at Stake Conference we have a GA presiding Elder Wilford W. Andersen of the Seventy.

He opened the floor for questions pertaining to salvation, the spirit pressed upon my to ask about D&C 84:41 because I wanted to know and because many here have asked I seek further explanation and no better source of information than a living prophet of God.

He response paraphrased for brevity (and the fact I can't write down word for word that quickly) is to break the covenant and turn away from it completely is to live in violation of the covenants made without repentance and to die within your sins. If you do this with any covenant (not just the priesthood covenant he also mentioned the temple covenants and the baptismal covenants) and die without ever repenting you have broken the covenant and turned away from it completely and you cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.

He said the reason why, is that when you take these covenants (especially the temple covenants you start the process of learning everything that God knows (he called it the graduate program for everything) if you start this process and turn away from it and never repent you cannot receive forgiveness for this in this life or the next.

So this is what a GA had to say on the matter.

What do you guys think?

[BCSpace]

D&C 84:41 .

[CV75]

He said the reason why, is that when you take these covenants (especially the temple covenants you start the process of learning everything that God knows (he called it the graduate program for everything) if you start this process and turn away from it and never repent you cannot receive forgiveness for this in this life or the next.

It seems that when we don't repent, we stop receiving what God has to offer, including forgiveness.

[LDS Guy 1986]

It seems that when we don't repent, we stop receiving what God has to offer, including forgiveness.

That is a great way to put it, like Elder Andersen said, once you start the process of becoming like Heavenly Father and learning all he knows, to turn away means to lose everything including forgiveness.

It's all he knows or take nothing he knows (including mercy and forgiveness) the great thing though is that we are allowed mistakes in this life and even when we do not live up to our covenant perfectly, if we repent and make restitution and forsake our previous mistakes we are cleaned by the atonement! If not we would all be in a lot of trouble!!!

[CV75]

That is a great way to put it, like Elder Andersen said, once you start the process of becoming like Heavenly Father and learning all he knows, to turn away means to lose everything including forgiveness.

It's all he knows or take nothing he knows (including mercy and forgiveness) the great thing though is that we are allowed mistakes in this life and even when we do not live up to our covenant perfectly, if we repent and make restitution and forsake our previous mistakes we are cleaned by the atonement! If not we would all be in a lot of trouble!!!

Good thing we can repent of not repenting!

[ELF1024]

I think that is a better way of presenting it. Less hellfire and damnation, and more repentance.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think that is a better way of presenting it. Less hellfire and damnation, and more repentance.

I agree, the importance is to repent, but one also must understand the dire consequences of not repenting and not doing everything they can to follow there covenants. Complacency is easy if you think that lukewarm faith is fine, one must remember what the consequences are of such things.

The big thing is to not explain that there is eternal consequences of not keeping your end of your covenants with God is a great disservice to all who enter into these agreements with God. One must know and understand that beraking these covenants have dire consequences for us, that it is better no make no vow to God, than to make a vow to God and break it! (Ecclesiastes 5:4-5)

[LDS Guy 1986]

Good thing we can repent of not repenting!

Not according to Elder Anderson, if you spend your life unrepentant of your sins after taking upon yourself sacred covenants you cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.

[zerinus]

So, to open a whole new can of worms (since I have nothing better to do), tonight at Stake Conference we have a GA presiding Elder Wilford W. Andersen of the Seventy.

He opened the floor for questions pertaining to salvation, the spirit pressed upon my to ask about D&C 84:41 because I wanted to know and because many here have asked I seek further explanation and no better source of information than a living prophet of God.

He response paraphrased for brevity (and the fact I can't write down word for word that quickly) is to break the covenant and turn away from it completely is to live in violation of the covenants made without repentance and to die within your sins. If you do this with any covenant (not just the priesthood covenant he also mentioned the temple covenants and the baptismal covenants) and die without ever repenting you have broken the covenant and turned away from it completely and you cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.

He said the reason why, is that when you take these covenants (especially the temple covenants you start the process of learning everything that God knows (he called it the graduate program for everything) if you start this process and turn away from it and never repent you cannot receive forgiveness for this in this life or the next.

So this is what a GA had to say on the matter.

What do you guys think?

The problem I have with this answer is that it translates "altogether turneth thereform" into "turneth thereform until death" which to me doesn't mean the same thing. Would it be possible for someone to "altogether turn therefrom" before death? Or would it be possible for someone to "turn therefrom" until death, but without altogether "turning therefrom"? If the answer to either or both of those questions is yes (which I think it might be), then Elder Andersen's answer would be incorrect. It seems to me that what D&C 84:41 is talking about is the nature or quality of "turning therefrom," rather than the timing or duration of it.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The problem I have with this answer is that it translates "altogether turneth thereform" into "turneth thereform until death" which to me doesn't mean the same thing. Would it be possible for someone to "altogether turn therefrom" before death? Or would it be possible for someone to "turn therefrom" until death, but without altogether "turning therefrom"? If the answer to either or both of those questions is yes (which I think it might be), then Elder Andersen's answer would be incorrect. It seems to me that what D&C 84:41 is talking about is the nature or quality of "turning therefrom," rather than the timing or duration of it.

Well, as we are taught throughout the scriptures this is our time to repent and follow God, that mortality is our probation period to get right with the Lord. After this period we cannot go back and fix and correct things we needed to do (with the exception for those who died without a knowledge, they can receive the Restored Gospel in the Spirit World just like they would of on Earth had they been permitted to tarry).This is why we are constantly warned of the consequences of sin and admonished to not delay the day of your repentance, once we pass through the veil we lose the opportunities to do the steps necessary in this period of mortality to prepare for the Celestial Law of the Celestial Kingdom.

What makes you believe that if we cannot be honest, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins in the flesh to the best of our ability, that we will suddenly change our ways in the Spirit World?

The prophet's teach will be just as obedient or rebellious in the Spirit World as we are in mortality, that our personalities and desires do not change when we pass through the veil.

[zerinus]

Well, as we are taught throughout the scriptures this is our time to repent and follow God, that mortality is our probation period to get right with the Lord. After this period we cannot go back and fix and correct things we needed to do (with the exception for those who died without a knowledge, they can receive the Restored Gospel in the Spirit World just like they would of on Earth had they been permitted to tarry).This is why we are constantly warned of the consequences of sin and admonished to not delay the day of your repentance, once we pass through the veil we lose the opportunities to do the steps necessary in this period of mortality to prepare for the Celestial Law of the Celestial Kingdom.

What makes you believe that if we cannot be honest, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins in the flesh to the best of our ability, that we will suddenly change our ways in the Spirit World?

The prophet's teach will be just as obedient or rebellious in the Spirit World as we are in mortality, that our personalities and desires do not change when we pass through the veil.

That may be true up to a point, but would that mean that such people will have committed the unpardonable sin? I am not sure that it would.

And what about all the wicked people who lived before the flood, of whom Peter said that Jesus went to preach to them after His death, so that they might have a chance to repent and be redeemed (though not with a celestial glory)?

[LDS Guy 1986]

That may be true up to a point. Would that mean that such people will have committed the unpardonable sin?

As far as I understand the scriptures and Elder Anderson yes, to take upon yourself the name of Christ and enter into these promises with God to follow Christ, and then break you word and never repent and seek salvation through the atonement is a sin against the Holy Ghost and is an unforgivable (or unpardonable) sin

And what about all the wicked people who lived before the flood, of whom Peter said that Jesus went to preach to them after His death, so that they might have a chance to repent and be redeemed (though not with a celestial glory)?

Those person's died without a knowledge of the Gospel as far as I understand, so they receive the change to learn the Gospel in spirit prison and can accept it just like they would of had they been permitted to tarry. This is the purpose of the spirit world, to teach those who had no knowledge in the flesh and to help those who never came to accept the Gospel in the flesh accept it in the Spirit World so they can obtain the Terrestrial Kingdom.

[zerinus]

As far as I understand the scriptures and Elder Anderson yes, to take upon yourself the name of Christ and enter into these promises with God to follow Christ, and then break you word and never repent and seek salvation through the atonement is a sin against the Holy Ghost and is an unforgivable (or unpardonable) sin

Not too sure about that.

Those person's died without a knowledge of the Gospel as far as I understand, so they receive the change to learn the Gospel in spirit prison and can accept it just like they would of had they been permitted to tarry. This is the purpose of the spirit world, to teach those who had no knowledge in the flesh and to help those who never came to accept the Gospel in the flesh accept it in the Spirit World so they can obtain the Terrestrial Kingdom.

According to the scriptures that is not correct. Noah preached repentance to them for a hundred years, but they but failed to repent. Instead they tried to kill him! So they had plenty of chances to hear the gospel and repent, before they were destroyed. They received their lot in that "prison" as a punishment, until the redemption wrought by Jesus Christ.

[LDS Guy 1986]

According to the scriptures that is not correct. Noah preached repentance to them for a hundred years, but they but failed to repent. Instead they tried to kill him! So they had plenty of chances to hear the gospel and repent, before they were destroyed. They received their lot in that "prison" as a punishment, until the redemption wrought by Jesus Christ.

Telling someone to repent of sin, and teaching someone the fullness of the Gospel is not the same thing. You can tell someone to repent without them obtaining a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, to obtain a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, requires conscious effort on one's behalf.

[Calm]

Not according to Elder Anderson...

Not according to your representation and interpretation of what Elder Anderson said, you mean.

There is a reason why the CHI includes an instruction for members not to use GA's comments from meetings for anything but personal use without permission from that individual:

21.1.39

Statements Attributed to Church Leaders

From time to time, statements are circulated that are inaccurately attributed to leaders of the Church. Many such statements distort current Church teachings and are based on rumors and innuendos. They are never transmitted officially, but by word of mouth, e-mail, or other informal means. Church members should not teach or pass on such statements without verifying that they are from approved Church sources, such as official statements, communications, and publications.

Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only.

http://lds.org/handb...ang=eng#21.1.39

[Calm]

It seems that when we don't repent, we stop receiving what God has to offer, including forgiveness.

How can there be forgiveness from God in the absence of repentance from men?

[zerinus]

Telling someone to repent of sin, and teaching someone the fullness of the Gospel is not the same thing. You can tell someone to repent without them obtaining a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, to obtain a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, requires conscious effort on one's behalf.

You are now shifting your ground, and changing your stance. This is what you had said, ant it is what I was replying to:

Well, as we are taught throughout the scriptures this is our time to repent and follow God, that mortality is our probation period to get right with the Lord. After this period we cannot go back and fix and correct things we needed to do . . . This is why we are constantly warned of the consequences of sin and admonished to not delay the day of your repentance, once we pass through the veil we lose the opportunities to do the steps necessary in this period of mortality to prepare for the Celestial Law of the Celestial Kingdom.

And in any case, preaching repentance does not mean no knowledge of the gospel. In this dispensation too our missionaries are told to preach

[LDS Guy 1986]

You are now shifting your ground, and changing your stance. This is what you had said, ant it is what I was replying to:

And in any case, preaching repentance does not mean no knowledge of the gospel. In this dispensation too our missionaries are told to preach

[LDS Guy 1986]

Not according to your representation and interpretation of what Elder Anderson said, you mean.

There is a reason why the CHI includes an instruction for members not to use GA's comments from meetings for anything but personal use without permission from that individual:

http://lds.org/handb...ang=eng#21.1.39

So what you are saying is I am intentionally distorting what the Elder told me last night in Stake Conference in response to a direct question I asked him?

Or is it that I am wrongly attributing it to Elder Anderson, even though I asked him the question and he directly answered it?

Either way you statement says I am willingly lying, or just to dumb to understand the answer from a GA when I ask him a direct question.

I take no offense to the too dumb implication cause I don't try and act like I understand everything, I know there are many things I am wrong about, this could even be one of them.

What I do take offense to is the implication that I am intentionally trying to distort the direct answer I was given by a Seventy of the Church to imply something he did not say, or that I am wrongfully attributing it to him without knowing it came from him.

It was my question to the man, he answered it, I have presented with no deceit or any interpretation, I simply wrote down as much of what he told he as my chicken scratch could record and put it up here.

[CV75]

Not according to Elder Anderson, if you spend your life unrepentant of your sins after taking upon yourself sacred covenants you cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.

Of course--there comes a point where someone can put themselves in a position where they can no longer repent, but in the meantime, he can repent no matter how late it seems, up to that point.

[CV75]

How can there be forgiveness from God in the absence of repentance from men?

Forgiveness and the benefits thereof cannot be received by a man without his repentance from sin. For this reason, when we don't repent, we don't receive what God has to offer, including forgiveness. Forgiveness is offered by virtue of the atonement.

[Calm]

So what you are saying is I am intentionally distorting what the Elder told me last night in Stake Conference in response to a direct question I asked him?

Or is it that I am wrongly attributing it to Elder Anderson, even though I asked him the question and he directly answered it?

Either way you statement says I am willingly lying, or just to dumb to understand the answer from a GA when I ask him a direct question.

I take no offense to the too dumb implication cause I don't try and act like I understand everything, I know there are many things I am wrong about, this could even be one of them.

What I do take offense to is the implication that I am intentionally trying to distort the direct answer I was given by a Seventy of the Church to imply something he did not say, or that I am wrongfully attributing it to him without knowing it came from him.

It was my question to the man, he answered it, I have presented with no deceit or any interpretation, I simply wrote down as much of what he told he as my chicken scratch could record and put it up here.

There is nothing in what I said that would indicate I thought you were intentionally distorting his reply. That you read it that way as a possibility is indicative of how easy it is to misinterpret what others say even in writing. There was a study done awhile back that indicated that the accurate comprehension of material conveyed over the Internet (emails, blogs, message boards, websites, etc. IIRC) was less than 50%. Misunderstanding and therefore misrepresentation when trying to repeat something is commonplace and has less, imo, to do with intelligence and more to do with the assumptions we possess when we encounter these ideas.

No matter how accurate or inaccurate your comment might be, the Church has asked its members not to engage in repeating authorities' comments without their permission. Posting your notes here is therefore inappropriate.

[Calm]

Forgiveness and the benefits thereof cannot be received by a man without his repentance from sin. For this reason, when we don't repent, we don't receive what God has to offer, including forgiveness. Forgiveness is offered by virtue of the atonement.

Indeed.

[LDS Guy 1986]

There is nothing in what I said that would indicate I thought you were intentionally distorting his reply.

Really? Let's look at what you actually said, and what you are trying to say I said.

You Said:

Not according to your representation and interpretation of what Elder Anderson said, you mean.

Inferring that I did something to take what he said to me in response to my question (which several here have challenged me to ask this question of the Stake President because I am obviously wrong and anyone I ask will set me straight, and I had the opportunity to ask a member of the Seventy first instead) and distort it to say something that it didn't.

Since he was answering a direct question the only way for it to be misrepresented to those who wanted my to ask a priesthood leader this question for clarification, is to intentionally and willing distort his answer given to me.

The point of the OP was to notify those that insisted I stood alone on this issue with D&C 84:41 that I did what they asked of me and went beyond not only asking a member of the Stake Presidency but asking a General Authority of the Church for clarification. His response confirmed what I believed and added clarification to the conditions of what contributes to breaking the covenant (unrepentant unto ones death) and why breaking the covenant is an unforgivable sin.

This is why it is called Part 2, if you want the context, (instead of assuming my intentions) you could view the original thread and see the context of this thread.

[LDS Guy 1986]

No matter how accurate or inaccurate your comment might be, the Church has asked its members not to engage in repeating authorities' comments without their permission. Posting your notes here is therefore inappropriate.

The only thing inappropriate here is for you to not read the original thread to understand why I posted this answer to my question from Elder Anderson. I was asked to seek clarification from church leadership by other posters, I did and I presented this clarification.

Instead of learning this you attempt to derail the thread with false accusations of misconduct, which is only inappropriate conduct on this thread.