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jonq1102

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my name is jon and as of late I have been in search of truth. I am drawn to Mormonism for some reason so I started meeting with missionaries for the last month and I have to ask all of you out of curiosity and not to offend: why do you believe in this religion if all the archaeological information points to it all being false? I mean there is no money, weaponry, ruins, etc, there is no evidence of there ever being cities called nephi, bountiful, etc.

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Don't know if you're a troll or not, but welcome!

I'll answer regardless. Archaeological evidence can do no more to prove the Book of Mormon true or false than it'll prove the Bible true or false. I know if you go to this fellow on Youtube, he's got some videos on what archaeology can and can't do.

Why do I believe? Because I've recieved a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet. And that confirmation has come to me overwhelmingly many times, despite my skeptical nature and the so-called 'wealth' of evidence against it.

Now, as for what you brought up, I'll toss in my .02.

I mean there is no money

Note that although the current chapter heading in the Book of Mormon mentions Nephite coinage, the text itself makes no mention of it. It has more to do with weights of metal than anything, how one amount of gold is worth a certain amount of silver, which also equals a measure of barley or such. Take a look at Alma 11 a bit more.

weaponry

See here.

ruins

Although we can't conclusively determine where the Book of Mormon occurred - current scholarship favors the Mesoamerican model - there's plenty of ruins to see. And not having the same names doesn't really mean that much IMO. Names of cities tend to change when their peoples are conquered and all their records destroyed. But that's just my thought, no scholarship to back it up.

Also, take a look at this talk, it might take a while to load/stream, but its very worth taking a look at in this matter.

Cheers, hope all is well with ya. And welcome again. :-)

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Your missionaries will guide you and you will learn just as I am trying to learn. Give it time, and learn and read and understand.

If you are a troll, well, watch out for sunlight.

Blessings,

Blossom

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From an essay of mine,

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=16&num=1&id=534

wherein I quote Mesoamerican scholar Brant Gardner, who has a six volume commentary on the Book of Mormon, several important papers at FAIR, and some enlightening FAIR videos:

What evidence do you expect to find (or to be found) regarding the Book of Mormon civilization?

[Gardner] A very fair question. I'll answer by telling you where I started on my current examination and the conclusions I have made. I began with an examination of my assumptions and what can and cannot be done with ethnohistorical data. I base my current work on previous work with Mesoamerican history, trying to sort out the development of religious ideas in later Mesoamerica (quite apart from anything that has to do with Mormons).

Here are my assumptions:

1. The Book of Mormon, if it is an ancient text, should behave like one.

2. The writers of the Book of Mormon should have an agenda that is their own, not one modeled after a modern concern.

3. The text should demonstrate typical concerns for ancient societies

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Don't know if you're a troll or not, but welcome!

I'll answer regardless. Archaeological evidence can do no more to prove the Book of Mormon true or false than it'll prove the Bible true or false. I know if you go to this fellow on Youtube, he's got some videos on what archaeology can and can't do.

Why do I believe? Because I've recieved a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet. And that confirmation has come to me overwhelmingly many times, despite my skeptical nature and the so-called 'wealth' of evidence against it.

Now, as for what you brought up, I'll toss in my .02.

Note that although the current chapter heading in the Book of Mormon mentions Nephite coinage, the text itself makes no mention of it. It has more to do with weights of metal than anything, how one amount of gold is worth a certain amount of silver, which also equals a measure of barley or such. Take a look at Alma 11 a bit more.

See here.

Although we can't conclusively determine where the Book of Mormon occurred - current scholarship favors the Mesoamerican model - there's plenty of ruins to see. And not having the same names doesn't really mean that much IMO. Names of cities tend to change when their peoples are conquered and all their records destroyed. But that's just my thought, no scholarship to back it up.

Also, take a look at this talk, it might take a while to load/stream, but its very worth taking a look at in this matter.

Cheers, hope all is well with ya. And welcome again. :-)

I am definitely not a troll lol, I am just searching for truth and am a straight shooter when asking questions. I know the archaeology can't prove the faith part but I think it should raise a lot of flags when the locations the BoM speaks of don't have any evidence of even existing. At least in the Bible just about every single locale can be accounted for and the people as well. http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/latin/pilate.html

I just think that if the Book can't hold up historically, how then can anything else it claims possibly hold up in a logical thought? I mean you have never had doubts? How do you know what you experienced was the holy ghost and not your own self serving bias?

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I am definitely not a troll lol, I am just searching for truth and am a straight shooter when asking questions. I know the archaeology can't prove the faith part but I think it should raise a lot of flags when the locations the BoM speaks of don't have any evidence of even existing.

Sure they do. What needs to change is your expectations. You assume that old world archaeology is the same as new world archaeology. They are not. For one we don't even have a lot of records and there are still languages such as the Olmec that we cannot even translate right now.

At least in the Bible just about every single locale can be accounted for and the people as well. http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/latin/pilate.html

Acutally this is a false statement. There is plenty in the bible that cannot be verified. Sure we know were Jerusalem is, but how does that prove that Jesus rose from teh grave?

Does knowing were Jerusalem is prove were that Abraham really lived? Or that the first man was Adam? Similarly, does not knowing were Mt Siani is disprove the 10 palgues of Moses?

I just think that if the Book can't hold up historically, how then can anything else it claims possibly hold up in a logical thought? I mean you have never had doubts?

Of course I have thought about it. Do you think we are all rubes? I suggest that if you go down this line of thought you should abandon the Bible for the same reasons as questioning the BoM.

How do you know what you experienced was the holy ghost and not your own self serving bias?

Tell me, How do you know you are tasting salt when you eat it?

I love when people try to infer that what I tasted is not what I know it is. I think I know more about me and myself more than you possibly ever could.

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Sure they do. What needs to change is your expectations. You assume that old world archaeology is the same as new world archaeology. They are not. For one we don't even have a lot of records and there are still languages such as the Olmec that we cannot even translate right now.

Acutally this is a false statement. There is plenty in the bible that cannot be verified. Sure we know were Jerusalem is, but how does that prove that Jesus rose from teh grave?

Does knowing were Jerusalem is prove were that Abraham really lived? Or that the first man was Adam? Similarly, does not knowing were Mt Siani is disprove the 10 palgues of Moses?

Of course I have thought about it. Do you think we are all rubes? I suggest that if you go down this line of thought you should abandon the Bible for the same reasons as questioning the BoM.

Tell me, How do you know you are tasting salt when you eat it?

I love when people try to infer that what I tasted is not what I know it is. I think I know more about me and myself more than you possibly ever could.

Don't get me wrong I'm an agnostic, I didn't say everything in the bible is provable but a lot of the places, non supernatural events, and as I said many of the people are. Also what have you to say about reformed egyptian? There's no evidence for that. Many experts I have seen asked about it looked clueless when asked about it saying that there is no such thing. The Bible of course does not prove the supernatural but at the very least can prove empirical things where the BoM can't even do that. On the other hand ancient civilizations in south america did speak of a white bearded god who came to visit them. But again on the other other hand all description in the bible points to him being of dark complexion. And up until a certain point when one of the Popes had a new painting commissioned of Jesus making him white most depictions of him were black.

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I am definitely not a troll lol, I am just searching for truth and am a straight shooter when asking questions. I know the archaeology can't prove the faith part but I think it should raise a lot of flags when the locations the BoM speaks of don't have any evidence of even existing.

What would such a location look like today?

Welcome, by the way. :P

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What would such a location look like today?

Welcome, by the way. :P

thank you ;) and well I would expect some kind of ancient tablet of something saying nephi or anything related you know? Something even just a piece of papyrus saying something about these people before it was written in the 1800s

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There is evidence that supports the BOM (but no proof, of course) but that evidence is best examined for oneself, since many people have looked at it but not all agree on it's significance.

I would recommend looking at this link, specifically under the heading "Bountiful and Nahom in the Arabian Peninsula" to gain some understanding of what has been discovered that was previous unknown.

:P

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There is evidence that supports the BOM (but no proof, of course) but that evidence is best examined for oneself, since many people have looked at it but not all agree on it's significance.

I would recommend looking at this link, specifically under the heading "Bountiful and Nahom in the Arabian Peninsula" to gain some understanding of what has been discovered that was previous unknown.

:P

Ok thanks I'll take a look at it! ;)

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I just think that if the Book can't hold up historically, how then can anything else it claims possibly hold up in a logical thought? I mean you have never had doubts? How do you know what you experienced was the holy ghost and not your own self serving bias?

It's my personal opinion that the Book does hold up historically, and there's plenty of people that are much better educated than me that can give evidence of this. Not proof, but evidence, which is key. If there was proof, there'd be no need for faith.

I've had plenty of doubts, as a matter of fact, those doubts I had as a teenager are what led me to a previous version of this message board over five years ago. Although I can't say that I don't disagree with certain things within the church, well church culture to be more specific, I do know the Book of Mormon to be a true record and volume of scripture. And frankly, at the age when that was revealed to me, I can say that I didn't want it to be. With all the crap that had gone down in my life at that point, it would've been easier for me to have quietly backed out and left the church. But I couldn't, because of that answer and confirmation that I received.

Edited by Gohan
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It's my personal opinion that the Book does hold up historically, and there's plenty of people that are much better educated than me that can give evidence of this. Not proof, but evidence, which is key. If there was proof, there'd be no need for faith.

I've had plenty of doubts, as a matter of fact, those doubts I had as a teenager are what led me to a previous version of this message board over five years ago. Although I can't say that I don't disagree with certain things within the church, well church culture to be more specific, I do know the Book of Mormon to be a true record and volume of scripture. And frankly, at the age when that was revealed to me, I can say that I didn't want it to be. With all the crap that had gone down in my life at that point, it would've been easier for me to have quietly backed out and left the church. But I couldn't, because of that answer and confirmation that I received.

Ok thanks for your input. Perfectly respectable answer. I guess it brings us back to what the missionaries told me though. "Pray about it and see what God tells you" What if you aren't sure God exists like me? What if you want it to be true but all logic in your own mind tells you otherwise and to stop being childish?

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I'd refer you to a chapter of scripture within the Book of Mormon actually, one that the missionaries will probably give you if they already haven't. Take a look at the 32nd chapter of Alma, it gives a good formula for receiving an answer and being able to establish a belief in testimony in something.

Honestly, for me leastways, continuing to read the scriptures and feasting upon the word is the best thing I can advise. Its the biggest factor for me.

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I'd refer you to a chapter of scripture within the Book of Mormon actually, one that the missionaries will probably give you if they already haven't. Take a look at the 32nd chapter of Alma, it gives a good formula for receiving an answer and being able to establish a belief in testimony in something.

Honestly, for me leastways, continuing to read the scriptures and feasting upon the word is the best thing I can advise. Its the biggest factor for me.

k cool thanks i will look at it

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my name is jon and as of late I have been in search of truth. I am drawn to Mormonism for some reason so I started meeting with missionaries for the last month and I have to ask all of you out of curiosity and not to offend: why do you believe in this religion if all the archaeological information points to it all being false? I mean there is no money, weaponry, ruins, etc, there is no evidence of there ever being cities called nephi, bountiful, etc.

Welcome my friend to MD&D! =D

That is an interesting question, and one asked often... and I would lay this out to you that... it isn't quite as simple as it seems.

There is actually evidence for the Book of Mormon... but it is rather obscure. Some of the things that do exist are:

-Rivers and Deserts in the Old World in the correct areas described by the Book of Mormon.

-Bountiful and Valley of Lemuel may have been found in the Old World, the geography lines up well.

-A possible place for the town of Nahom... though it is currently debated.

-The amount of days the Jaredites took to cross the Atlantic is rather accurate, from what I have heard

-There is a set of tablets that have been found in Mesoamerica which come with a 96% character existence in comparison to the Anthon Transcript.

Now these are good and all... but I would think there is a better way to know it, that I would. I think, perhaps, the best way to discover the truth is to take to heart the promise given in Moroni... that if you read, and ask in faith, with true intentions... you will receive an answer. The archeology, truly, goes in neither direction, there are things that support, and things that do not, and I don't think we will get to the bottom of it for a while... however, if you ask in faith, you can have the answer now... which is much better I think =). It is also a very true and important principle of the gospel... and it will teach you things along the way =D. So yes... I would recommend praying for an answer... though you can do research too... but I don't think God would want to make the situation for the Book of Mormon very obvious in and of itself, if you know what I mean... we are supposed to have faith in him... and this is our challenge =).

Oh yah, and Gohan's reference is a very good chapter =D.

Best Wishes,

Your Friend,

TAO

Edited by TAO
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Welcome my friend to MD&D! =D

That is an interesting question, and one asked often... and I would lay this out to you that... it isn't quite as simple as it seems.

There is actually evidence for the Book of Mormon... but it is rather obscure. Some of the things that do exist are:

-Rivers and Deserts in the Old World in the correct areas described by the Book of Mormon.

-Bountiful and Valley of Lemuel may have been found in the Old World, the geography lines up well.

-A possible place for the town of Nahom... though it is currently debated.

-The amount of days the Jaredites took to cross the Atlantic is rather accurate, from what I have heard

-There is a set of tablets that have been found in Mesoamerica which come with a 96% character existence in comparison to the Anthon Transcript.

Now these are good and all... but I would think there is a better way to know it, that I would. I think, perhaps, the best way to discover the truth is to take to heart the promise given in Moroni... that if you read, and ask in faith, with true intentions... you will receive an answer. The archeology, truly, goes in neither direction, there are things that support, and things that do not, and I don't think we will get to the bottom of it for a while... however, if you ask in faith, you can have the answer now... which is much better I think =). It is also a very true and important principle of the gospel... and it will teach you things along the way =D. So yes... I would recommend praying for an answer... though you can do research too... but I don't think God would want to make the situation for the Book of Mormon very obvious in and of itself, if you know what I mean... we are supposed to have faith in him... and this is our challenge =).

Oh yah, and Gohan's reference is a very good chapter =D.

Best Wishes,

Your Friend,

TAO

very interesting, more things for me to look into. thanks!

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my name is jon and as of late I have been in search of truth. I am drawn to Mormonism for some reason so I started meeting with missionaries for the last month and I have to ask all of you out of curiosity and not to offend: why do you believe in this religion if all the archaeological information points to it all being false? I mean there is no money, weaponry, ruins, etc, there is no evidence of there ever being cities called nephi, bountiful, etc.

No true...but there is no "evidence" of Christ being raised from the dead...no "evidence" of heaven or life after death...no "evidence" of a world-wide flood...no "evidence" of the Exodus story in Egyptian historical writings; no second witness to use a Biblical term. If you are truly asking and not trolling. Faith is the key to all belief. But there is "evidence", it is just that our critics lie concerning it, or reject it in lieu of others opinions on the matter. Go to the Topical Guide on this site and see for yourself. Every topic you may want addressed is there.

here is a link...

Topical Guide

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thank you :P and well I would expect some kind of ancient tablet of something saying nephi or anything related you know? Something even just a piece of papyrus saying something about these people before it was written in the 1800s

You are expecting some of the rarest archaeological finds. Most archaeologists dream about finding writings, especially with important names on them, but very few ever do find them.

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You are expecting some of the rarest archaeological finds. Most archaeologists dream about finding writings, especially with important names on them, but very few ever do find them.

no I'm just expecting some decent shred of evidence which I haven't seen yet.

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...Also what have you to say about reformed egyptian? There's no evidence for that. Many experts I have seen asked about it looked clueless when asked about it saying that there is no such thing.

I was just reading this article on that subject when I remembered that you brought it up. Enjoy!

Edit: Also, I'd recommend opening up a thread or two with specific questions/concerns in the General Discussions board rather than in here, you might get a larger response. Also use the Search feature here or the FAIRWiki, it's fairly legit.

Edited by Gohan
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I was just reading this article on that subject when I remembered that you brought it up. Enjoy!

Edit: Also, I'd recommend opening up a thread or two with specific questions/concerns in the General Discussions board rather than in here, you might get a larger response. Also use the Search feature here or the FAIRWiki, it's fairly legit.

i can't it says i have to have at least 25 posts first in the social hall :P

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