Doctrinal Clarification Needed

[SilverKnight]

The following claims were made in another thread and presented as official LDS doctrine.

What I have said is plain, simple, and the standing doctrine of the Church

I am wondering if they are really such.

Could some of you address the following doctrinal claims:

So once again you are wrong, Mormons believe breaking your covenants is worse than mass murder, since breaking your covenants cannot be forgiven in this life or the next.

Is breaking covenants worse than mass murder?

Is breaking covenants an unforgivable sin?

Did Hitler and Dahmer (Bundy was Mormon) voluntarily make a promise to God to obey him and follow his ways? No, they did not so they are ignorant of the law and not held to the standard that a priesthood holder is.

So yes, I would rather be a non LDS mass murderer like Hitler on the Day of Judgement, than a LDS who broke my covenants, and lied to God.

Are unfaithful priesthood holders eternally worse off than serial killers and genocidal mass murderers?

To abuse your family is a violation of your priesthood covenant and then lie to God about it (remember your worthiness interview for the temple are between you and God the Stake president only a middle man), to do so until death is to be a Son of Perdition as we are told in D&C 84:41.

Yes, making a promise to God and then breaking it is very very serious, outer darkness serious IMO.

The idea that breaking the priesthood covenant is an unforgivable sin has been covered in every priesthood interview I have been in.

Does violating your priesthood covenants make you a Son of Perdition?

What I have said is plain, simple, and the standing doctrine of the Church unless something has changed between last Wednesday (when I was interviewed to be ordained as an Elder) and today.

Has the doctrine of the church changed since last Wednesday?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I would hate for a future full time ambassador of the church to enter the mission field with incorrect doctrinal notions.

I am married so I won't be serving a mission for another 30+ years, unless I am called as a Mission President.

Of course you could of asked this instead of being so vindictive and vicious.

Added by Edit:

Here is the parts that Silver Knight decided didn't warrant posting!

So yes, I would rather be a non LDS mass murderer like Hitler on the Day of Judgement, than a LDS who broke my covenants, and lied to God.

" Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

D&C 84:

40Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive thisoath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

[Jason]

Depends on the situation. If you were Joshua, for instance, you might find yourself making covenants to commit genocide. Then committing genocide would be keeping your covenant, and not committing genocide would mean breaking it, and ultimately (if you don't repent) loosing your place in the Celestial Kingdom.

[ELF1024]

Could some of you address the following doctrinal claims:

Is breaking covenants worse than mass murder?

Is breaking covenants an unforgivable sin?

Are unfaithful priesthood holders eternally worse off than serial killers and genocidal mass murderers?

Does violating your priesthood covenants make you a Son of Perdition?

I do not believe this is correct.

The only unforgiveable sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost. Breaking a covenant is NOT the same as sinning against the Holy Ghost.

In order to be Son of Perdition, you have to pretty much have seen God and THEN deny it. Very few people can live up (or down) to that standard.

[SilverKnight]

I am married so I won't be serving a mission for another 30+ years, unless I am called as a Mission President.

I assumed due to your age, recent ordination to the Melchizedek priesthood, and missionary zeal that you were a probably preparing for a mission - my mistake.

Of course you could of asked this instead of being so vindictive and vicious.

Nothing is vindictive and vicious about the OP other than a slight whiff of sarcasm.

Also nice how you left out the mountain of scriptures I presented also so when I get a chance I will post them here as well.

Please do.

We have some very knowledgeable scriptorians around here that I'm sure be willing to help you out.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Depends on the situation. If you were Joshua, for instance, you might find yourself making covenants to commit genocide. Then committing genocide would be keeping your covenant, and not committing genocide would mean breaking it, and ultimately (if you don't repent) loosing your place in the Celestial Kingdom.

Joshua didn't covenant to do anything he was commanded by God, there is a big difference, and the unfaithfulness of Joshua and his successors lead to God's plan for Israel not being fulfilled and God having Israel's enemies live among them to constantly prove Israel.

God has, will, and will continue as he pleases to command the wicked to be destroyed, especially when Christ comes again with the sword to destroy all the wicked in the cleansing of the world by fire before he established his millennial reign.

Why do so many, think God commanding Israel to destroy with wicked is evil?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I do not believe this is correct.

The only unforgiveable sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost. Breaking a covenant is NOT the same as sinning against the Holy Ghost.

In order to be Son of Perdition, you have to pretty much have seen God and THEN deny it. Very few people can live up (or down) to that standard.

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive thisoath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come. (D&C 84)

Are you sure of that, cause D&C 84 says otherwise?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Nothing is vindictive and vicious about the OP other than a slight whiff of sarcasm.

Baloney, you could of painted the OP in more negative light if you spent time and eternity scheming about it.

You intentionally presented what I have been saying with out the scriptures that support it and act like I am making this up and am some crazy fool, who needs to be corrected before I ruin the Church's missionary efforts.

Your being vindictive, vicious, and now deceitful.

[SilverKnight]

Baloney, you could of painted the OP in more negative light if you spent time and eternity scheming about it.

I think claiming unfaithful priesthood holders are worse than genocidal murderers generates negative light all on its own.

You intentionally presented what I have been saying with out the scriptures that support it and act like I am making this up and am some crazy fool, who needs to be corrected before I ruin the Church's missionary efforts.

The scriptures you evidenced justify some pretty disturbing notions.

Your being vindictive, vicious, and now deceitful.

Hmm, sort of like your ideas about covenant-breaking?

[Jason]

Joshua didn't covenant to do anything he was commanded by God, there is a big difference, and the unfaithfulness of Joshua and his successors lead to God's plan for Israel not being fulfilled and God having Israel's enemies live among them to constantly prove Israel.

Are you sure Joshua didn't covenant to obey the Lord? Something about his house doing so as well? And I don't recall reading anything about Joshua being unfaithful.

Why do so many, think God commanding Israel to destroy with wicked is evil?

I don't think it was evil.

I was pointing out that how many people you kill can have no bearing at all on whether you are righteous and keep your covenants.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Are you sure Joshua didn't covenant to obey the Lord? Something about his house doing so as well? And I don't recall reading anything about Joshua being unfaithful.

I don't think it was evil.

I was pointing out that how many people you kill can have no bearing at all on whether you are righteous and keep your covenants.

I used poor wording, he didn't covenant to kill, he was commanded to kill. Sorry about the poor wording.

[consiglieri]

Wow!

A spin-off thread of a spin-off thread.

Cool.

I hate to break it to you, LDS Guy, but you will have to include me in the caravan of Mormons who think you may be taking this a bit too far.

Okay, a lot too far.

Perhaps we can get some perspective on this.

Exactly how little a breakage of the priesthood covenant does it require to be worse than Hitler?

Are we talking a pack a day habit?

Some wine with dinner?

If you can define this a little better, we will all know what not to do in order to avoid winding up on Adolf's left hand.

You would be providing a service.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think claiming unfaithful priesthood holders are worse than genocidal murderers generates negative light all on its own.

There is nothing negative, the priesthood isn't a toy it is the most serious thing a man can take upon himself. Failure to uphold his promises in regards to it have unchangeable consequences according to the scriptures.

The scriptures you evidenced justify some pretty disturbing notions.

So if something disturbs us we change the Word of God to make ourselves feel better?

Hmm, sort of like your ideas about covenant-breaking?

There actually God's ideas as long as you accept the D&C as scripture. If not then that is a different story, but for your baloney fest of course you have to spin things to make it seem like I pulled this out of a hat instead of quoted it from the scriptures!

[SilverKnight]

Wow!

A spin-off thread of a spin-off thread.

Cool.

You are the cause of all this.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Wow!

A spin-off thread of a spin-off thread.

Cool.

I hate to break it to you, LDS Guy, but you will have to include me in the caravan of Mormons who think you may be taking this a bit too far.

Okay, a lot too far.

Perhaps we can get some perspective on this.

Exactly how little a breakage of the priesthood covenant does it require to be worse than Hitler?

Are we talking a pack a day habit?

Some wine with dinner?

If you can define this a little better, we will all know what not to do in order to avoid winding up on Adolf's left hand.

You would be providing a service.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

According to my leadership and this is a direct quote "Simply not magnifying your calling is breaking the oath and covenant of the priesthood"

[consiglieri]

You are the cause of all this.

*begins beaming with joy*

[consiglieri]

According to my leadership and this is a direct quote "Simply not magnifying your calling is breaking the oath and covenant of the priesthood"

So would that include missing your home teaching one month?

Maybe doing just a so-so job as teacher's quorum president?

I'm interested.

Seriously.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[WalkerW]

Doctrine and Covenants 84:41. "But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come." This is a solemn declaration. According to Elder McConkie, "this has never been interpreted by the Brethren to mean that those who forsake their priesthood duties, altogether turning therefrom, shall be sons of perdition; rather, the meaning seems to be that they shall be denied the exaltation that otherwise might have been theirs."

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that there is a chance to repent if a man has not altogether turned from the priesthood. If he does altogether turn from it, however, there is no forgiveness. "That does not mean that man is going to become a son of perdition, but the meaning is that he will never again have the opportunity of exercising the priesthood and reaching exaltation. That is where his forgiveness ends. He will not again have the priesthood conferred upon him, because he has trampled it under his feet; but as far as other things are concerned, he may be forgiven." (S. Brent Farley, "The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (D&C 84)," in Sperry Symposium Classics: The Doctrine and Covenants, Deseret Book, 2004).

Another interesting read is Paul James Toscano, "The Oath and Covenant of the Melchizedek Priesthood: An Exegesis," Sunstone (Sept. 1987).

And yes, I know Toscano is part of the September Six.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is breaking covenants worse than mass murder?

Absolutly not. I have never heard anything even remotly authoritive that approaches this doctrine.

Is breaking covenants an unforgivable sin?

Yes, infact that is why we take the sacrament. To renew our covenants.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

*begins beaming with joy*

Of course I can see that light beaming from your avatar.

[SilverKnight]

So if something disturbs us we change the Word of God to make ourselves feel better?

Certainly not.

I am all for stoning women to death who are discovered not to be virgins on their wedding night.

[consiglieri]

Another interesting read is Paul James Tuscano, "The Oath and Covenant of the Melchizedek Priesthood: An Exegesis," Sunstone (Sept. 1987).

And yes, I know Tuscano is part of the September Six.

Crap!

Now I've got something else I have to read.

Understanding that Tuscano was part of the September Six, I wonder what members of this board would be among the Consiglieri Seven?

You should know up front that Dr. Steuss and Emeliza have options on posts 1 and 2.

I will begin accepting applications immediately.

There is a modest nonrefundable application fee.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (The performer formerly known as Captain Poopie Pants)

[consiglieri]

Of course I can see that light beaming from your avatar.

Don't diss the avatar, homeboy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Certainly not.

I am all for stoning women to death who are discovered not to be virgins on their wedding night.

I can see were this thread is going to go.

Btw... LoL.

[thesometimesaint]

SK:

It is generally accepted among the LDS murder of any type is a major sin against God. But one that while very hard to repent of is forgivable. For someone who has made Temple covenants it is beyond very hard and is as close to impossible as it gets without being impossible.

Sin against the Holy Ghost is impossible to repent of because that sinner does not want to repent.

So in that limited sense Murder, even mass murder is less severe than sin against the Holy Ghost.