Today is Judgment Day!

[consiglieri]

The purpose of this thread is to rank the following three hypothetical individuals appearing before the judgment seat of God:

1. The man who is an active, tithe-paying, temple-attending, calling-accepting Latter-day Saint who verbally abuses his wife, berates his children, and is dishonest in his business practices.

2. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, but who is honest and upstanding in his dealings with his fellow men, and who is charitable, kind and forgiving.

3. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, whose life is riddled with sin, but who is sorrowful and contrite over the sins he commits, and pleads for forgiveness.

This is the way they appear before the judgment seat. There has been no intervening activity in the spirit world; no temple ordinances accepted by the non-LDS people.

How do these three people rank in God's eyes, and what scriptures would you use to support your position?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. You are God, so the scripture about not judging others does not apply to you.

[Thunderfire]

In my opinion, God will show his love for all of them. He will also show how much he gave us and how each used the gifts and blessings of God.

But what if final judgment is more of a process of "rewarding" us for our successes verse hurting us for our failures?

I actually visited with a man who had a "vision" of the judgment process. You are given the bread and wine in preparation. EVERY scene from your life is played out before you. The harshness of it is NOT what the Lord does, but what you do to yourself in seeing how nothing was hidden and that we are accountable for everything we do, say, and even think. This is what makes repentance so necessary and a gift beyond our ability to fully comprehend. Everything repented of is forgiven and forgotten (Isaiah 43:25)

In another account, a man was asked one question by the Lord..."How did you live your life for me?" And the rewards (or lack thereof) was in his ability to answer this one question.

The way the three examples were worded it is easy for us to think that number one is in BIG trouble and that two and three will have an easier judgment experience. But all will find mercy and the sting of missed opportunities. All will see their successes and failures. They will all rank the same in God's eyes, but the rewards of judgment will still be different...

[The Mean Farmer]

This my friend is why we don't get to play Judge of mens souls while here on earth. I won't begin to claim to know how the Lord will Judge these 3 individuals.

[consiglieri]

This my friend is why we don't get to play Judge of mens souls while here on earth. I won't begin to claim to know how the Lord will Judge these 3 individuals.

I think the scriptures abound with hints.

And don't worry. This is just an exercise.

Nobody is really going to hell.

Or heaven, either, for that matter.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jason]

Ah yes, playing God. That always goes well, doesn't it?

[consiglieri]

In my opinion, God will show his love for all of them. He will also show how much he gave us and how each used the gifts and blessings of God.

Thanks to you, Thunderfire, for at least having the temerity to make some suggestions.

I believe, if the scriptures are any indication, that the person worst off in this scenario is the active Latter-day Saint and the person best off is the sinner who acknowledges his sin and pleads for forgiveness.

Now that I have committed myself to a position, all other comers are free to agree or disagree.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Ah yes, playing God. That always goes well, doesn't it?

Don't judge me.

[LDSToronto]

The purpose of this thread is to rank the following three hypothetical individuals appearing before the judgment seat of God:

1. The man who is an active, tithe-paying, temple-attending, calling-accepting Latter-day Saint who verbally abuses his wife, berates his children, and is dishonest in his business practices.

2. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, but who is honest and upstanding in his dealings with his fellow men, and who is charitable, kind and forgiving.

3. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, whose life is riddled with sin, but who is sorrowful and contrite over the sins he commits, and pleads for forgiveness.

This is the way they appear before the judgment seat. There has been no intervening activity in the spirit world; no temple ordinances accepted by the non-LDS people.

How do these three people rank in God's eyes, and what scriptures would you use to support your position?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. You are God, so the scripture about not judging others does not apply to you.

You are all spoil-sports! I'll play, but I don't have time for scriptural support at this moment:

I'd say that #1 is in the worst position - something to do with 'to whom much is given, much is required'... I think abuse and dishonesty violates that, along with the whole, 'Whoa be unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell', or something like that. Not to mention he's probably violating his temple covenants. So, as God, I'll put him down in the terrestrial kingdom.

Now #2 & #3 are tough... #2 is living a morally good life, treats people the way I, GOD, would like them treated, and he's a genuinely good guy. Sure, he may drink on occasion, maybe watch an R-rated movie or two, but hey, who doesn't? Ultimately, he probably doesn't know better, and I can get Joseph Smith and Jesus to teach him... So, I'm going to assume that he does OK in the spirit prison, accepts the gospel, and hey, why not, let's give him a tier in the Celestial Kingdom

#3 breaks my heart. He's weak, knows his weakness, and begs forgiveness. His life was full of sorrow, but he did all he could to overcome. Perhaps his only problem was not finding me, GOD. I could have helped. Now he can rest. I (GOD) will have the gospel taught to him, and he will accept it... I think he will find glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

Ok, how's that? I probably will catch some flack for putting the unendowed in the CK, but I can't be sure (as ME) that it couldn't happen. D&C is not super clear, nor are recent statements by prophets.

Who else will play?

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The purpose of this thread is to rank the following three hypothetical individuals appearing before the judgment seat of God:

1. The man who is an active, tithe-paying, temple-attending, calling-accepting Latter-day Saint who verbally abuses his wife, berates his children, and is dishonest in his business practices.

2. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, but who is honest and upstanding in his dealings with his fellow men, and who is charitable, kind and forgiving.

3. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, whose life is riddled with sin, but who is sorrowful and contrite over the sins he commits, and pleads for forgiveness.

This is the way they appear before the judgment seat. There has been no intervening activity in the spirit world; no temple ordinances accepted by the non-LDS people.

How do these three people rank in God's eyes, and what scriptures would you use to support your position?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. You are God, so the scripture about not judging others does not apply to you.

From what we know about the scriptures:

2 & 3 inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, they made mistakes, but I will assume that they accepted Christ in the spirit world after never accepting him in the mortal world so they go the Terrestrial Kingdom. They cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom because they do not have the proper ordinances done, but God will still have abundant mercy on them. Rememeber what JS taught, he taught that even the Telestial Kingdom is infinitely better than moral life, he believed if man could see the Telestial kingdom that many would commit suicide simply to get there knowing how much better it was than the currant state of the world.

So many act like anything short of Celestial Kingdom is a punishment, God provides mercifully for all his children who have not committed the unforgivable sins. All the glories are perfect, we simply enjoy more or less glory based upon or works and the laws pertaining to each kingdom.

This is why there is Outer Darkness as well, Outer Darkness is the punishment for those who can't be saved, everyone else is in Heaven just in different mansions as the Lord tells us in Matthew.

1 Goes to outer darkness, he broke his covenants and repeatedly lied to Church (without remorse) after accepting the Covenants of the Priesthood in the Temple, according to the scriptures as I understand them, he has sinned against the Holy Ghost (as defined in D&C 84:41) and is a Son of Perdition.

P.S. There is no judgement here since this is all theoretical anyway, so since we are not talking about actual people just theoretical situations there is no actual judgement happening.

[LDS Guy 1986]

This my friend is why we don't get to play Judge of mens souls while here on earth. I won't begin to claim to know how the Lord will Judge these 3 individuals.

He's asking how you would judge them if you were Heavenly Father (based on what we have in the scriptures I assume). If you didn't want to participate why judge the OP (with your statement) for asking a theoretical question?

[Jason]

Don't judge me.

You have included insufficient information to properly judge the individuals.

For #1, what is meant by "abuse" and "berate" with regards to his wife and children. And what is meant by "dishonest at business" he steals staples and an occasional sheet of paper? In other words, just how bad is he, a little or a lot? Is he completely unrepentent? Is he worse or better than he used to be?

For #2, what did he do when the missionaries approached him in the world or the Spirit World. Why did he reject the gospel when it was presented to him?

For #3, why did he reject the gospel when it was presented to him? Why did he not repent earlier? Did he become repentent the moment he reached the bar, and not before?

[consiglieri]

Rememeber what JS taught, he taught that even the Telestial Kingdom is infinitely better than moral life, he believed if man could see the Telestial kingdom that many would commit suicide simply to get there knowing how much better it was than the currant state of the world.

I appreciate your taking a stab at this, LDS Guy.

I do want to add that I believe it a persistent canard that Joseph Smith taught this whole "suicide" thing.

I once tried to track it down and was unable to get back before a Conference Talk in the 1950's, I believe, where the speaker attributed this statement to Joseph Smith without any citation.

I have never come across it in any of Joseph Smith's own writings, though.

I think it is a popular story that just sort of took off.

Thanks again for playing.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[CV75]

You are God, so the scripture about not judging others does not apply to you.

Another day in the life of an imperfect god... I would judge them each in equal need of walking in each other's shoes, give them the (likely virtual) opportunity to do so, then provide the intervening activity in the spirit world and temples that evidently had been overlooked (and soundly punish the person(s) responsible for the oversight and having presented them to me with insufficient preparation).

[SilverKnight]

The purpose of this thread is to rank the following three hypothetical individuals appearing before the judgment seat of God:

Sure I'll play.

1. The man who is an active, tithe-paying, temple-attending, calling-accepting Latter-day Saint who verbally abuses his wife, berates his children, and is dishonest in his business practices.

I am a bit disappointed in how you treated your family and fellow man, if you are willing spend the next few Kolob years making amends, then I'll forgive you and let you go back to primary, where you should have learned to be nice to others.

2. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, but who is honest and upstanding in his dealings with his fellow men, and who is charitable, kind and forgiving.

Your are going to be exalted, the interview with my Son is just a formality.

3. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, whose life is riddled with sin, but who is sorrowful and contrite over the sins he commits, and pleads for forgiveness.

Go see the souls of those you hurt during your life, say you're sorry, give them a hug, then come back and enjoy your exaltation.

How do these three people rank in God's eyes, and what scriptures would you use to support your position?

Ill pass, the scriptures are a bit ill-equipped to deal with the needs of these people, plus they make me out to be a real jerk.

[Rock_N_Roll]

I agree with Jason. We do not have enough information to judge any of these people, nor could we unless we actually were God. With #1, how bad was the abuse - on a scale of 1 to 1000? How many times did it occur - once or 2000 times? How bad was his dishonesty with his business? Did he take an extra 10 minutes for lunch, or did he embezzle $100,000? Or was it something in-between? Same with the other two - too many variables and unknown's to make any kind of judgment. What was/is the mental state/health of each of the individuals at the time of the sin? Was one of them born with a pre-disposition to a certain type of sin, making the repentance of and over-coming of the sin a much harder, thus much more commendable, thing?

I have to disagree with LDS Guy on #1 going to Outer Darkness. I doubt that person had a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ etc. Do any of us, excepting some Apostles and Prophets, of course?

From Gospel Pricipals - "These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever."

[SilverKnight]

1 Goes to outer darkness, he broke his covenants and repeatedly lied to Church (without remorse) after accepting the Covenants of the Priesthood in the Temple, according to the scriptures as I understand them, he has sinned against the Holy Ghost (as defined in D&C 84:41) and is a Son of Perdition.

Wow a punishment worse than that of Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer - all for violating temple covenants and ignoring the holy ghost.

How Old Testament of you.

P.S. Your understanding of the quasi-doctrine of Perdition could not be more incorrect.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I appreciate your taking a stab at this, LDS Guy.

I do want to add that I believe it a persistent canard that Joseph Smith taught this whole "suicide" thing.

I once tried to track it down and was unable to get back before a Conference Talk in the 1950's, I believe, where the speaker attributed this statement to Joseph Smith without any citation.

I have never come across it in any of Joseph Smith's own writings, though.

I think it is a popular story that just sort of took off.

Thanks again for playing.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I don't know if much about the background of the story either, but I think the important thing to remember is that even the lowest kingdom in heaven is infinitely better than the best possible existence in mortality.

I don't comprehend why so many feel that not getting into Celestial Kingdom is some kind of punishment, when it isn't all the kingdoms of glory are heaven. They are just the different mansions prepared for us based upon our works, the ideas of kingdom hopping or that not getting into celestial glory is some terrible and abominable thing shows how unready some are for the celestial kingdom.

There is no punishment in heaven, there is only unity and peace, no one is suffering, we are simply enjoying the rewards of our work. The only ones being punished are the sons of perdition and Lucifer in Outer Darkness, everyone else is good, they just have different rewards based on different works.

So many people this twisted idea about equality and justice that everyone needs the same thing for things to be fair, this is not the case. We each get what we earn and we will all be grateful and blessed to receive our just rewards.

[thesometimesaint]

consiglieri:

I believe God will reward ALL men(and women) for their works whether they be works of evil or work of righteousness. I further believe that it is all voluntary. Meaning that a way is established for men to be heirs of God and Christ in the fullest extent of the word if they so desire it.

[LDS Guy 1986]

P.S. Your understanding of the quasi-doctrine of Perdition could not be more incorrect.

So D&C 84:41 is a lie?

P.S. Wikipedia is wrong here, hence the fact that half the article needs citation.

Here is the official source (its a lot different than Wikipedia): http://lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng&query=sons+perdition

[LDS Guy 1986]

Wow a punishment worse than that of Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer - all for violating temple covenants and ignoring the holy ghost.

Why is this so shocking to you?

Did Hitler and Dahmer (Bundy was Mormon) voluntarily make a promise to God to obey him and follow his ways? No, they did not so they are ignorant of the law and not held to the standard that a priesthood holder is.

To abuse your family is a violation of your priesthood covenant and then lie to God about it (remember your worthiness interview for the temple are between you and God the Stake president only a middle man), to do so until death is to be a Son of Perdition as we are told in D&C 84:41.

[SilverKnight]

So D&C 84:41 is a lie?

Don't even need to read D&C 84.

Numerous LDS apostles and prophets, including Joseph Smith himself, clarified what it means to be a Son of Perdition.

What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.

-JS Jr

Is not the role of prophets and apostles to clarify and interpret scriptures?

Incidentally, do you really believe breaking religious covenants is worse than mass murder?

Come on man, seriously?

[consiglieri]

Do you really believe breaking religious covenants is worse than mass murder?

Ahh!

Now this is precisely the kind of discussion I was hoping to bait engender.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The purpose of this thread is to rank the following three hypothetical individuals appearing before the judgment seat of God:

1. The man who is an active, tithe-paying, temple-attending, calling-accepting Latter-day Saint who verbally abuses his wife, berates his children, and is dishonest in his business practices.

2. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, but who is honest and upstanding in his dealings with his fellow men, and who is charitable, kind and forgiving.

3. The man who is not a member of the LDS Church, whose life is riddled with sin, but who is sorrowful and contrite over the sins he commits, and pleads for forgiveness.

This is the way they appear before the judgment seat. There has been no intervening activity in the spirit world; no temple ordinances accepted by the non-LDS people.

How do these three people rank in God's eyes, and what scriptures would you use to support your position?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. You are God, so the scripture about not judging others does not apply to you.

I will take 2

[Senator]

Frankly, I would have the most pity for the LDS guy.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Don't even need to read D&C 84.

Numerous LDS apostles and prophets, including Joseph Smith himself, clarified what it means to be a Son of Perdition.

Ah I see, your a well forget the rules if a man says other wise it must be so!

Is not the role of prophets and apostles to clarify and interpret scriptures?

No, it's there job to speak under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to clarify scriptures, there personal opinions are not inspired though.

Incidentally, do you really believe breaking religious covenants is worse than mass murder?

So the whole idea that those ignorant of the law cannot be judged by the law doesn't ring a bell to you?

If Hitler was a priesthood holder he is most likely going to outer darkness because he broke his covenants to not murder when he was baptized and ordained into the priesthood.

Without knowledge of the law though he cannot he held as accountable as one who knowingly and willingly broke the promises he made to God.

So yes, I would rather be a non LDS mass murderer like Hitler on the Day of Judgement, than a LDS who broke my covenants, and lied to God.

" Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Come on man, seriously?

Yes, making a promise to God and then breaking it is very very serious, outer darkness serious IMO.