Ether 15:31

[inquiringmind]

I was just reading Ether 15:31.

"And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died."

I've been told that chickens can run after you cut off their heads, but how is this possible?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I was just reading Ether 15:31.

"And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died."

I've been told that chickens can run after you cut off their heads, but how is this possible?

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=98&chapid=1093

[Sevenbak]

I was just reading Ether 15:31.

"And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died."

I've been told that chickens can run after you cut off their heads, but how is this possible?

I don't think there's a lot of scientific driven beheadings to say one way or another, but this article from a newspaper in England sheds a little light on the rare phenomenon.

Liverpool Daily Post of February 1, 1900, on the occasion of the seizure of Spion Kop, in Natal:

"There was an extraordinary incident in Wednesday

[inquiringmind]

I don't think there's a lot of scientific driven beheadings to say one way or another, but this article from a newspaper in England sheds a little light on the rare phenomenon.

Liverpool Daily Post of February 1, 1900, on the occasion of the seizure of Spion Kop, in Natal:

"There was an extraordinary incident in Wednesday

[Sevenbak]

Thank you.

I was just reading about that same incident on the FAIR web site.

Here's two more. One from the civil war, one from the war of 1812.

[David T]

And if it ends up being just dramatic hyperbole...Really, practically, doctrinally, narratively - what would it substantially change?

[David Bokovoy]

I have a little bit different take on this issue.

The Book of Mormon intentionally reflects the King James translation of the Bible. The biblical passage that parallels Ether 15:31 is Judges 5:26:

[Acris Venator]

Page 74 of the Hagakure:

"Even if one's head were to be suddenly cut off, he should be able to do one more action with certainty. The last moments of Nitta Yoshisada are proof of this . Had his spirit been weak, he would have fallen the moment his head was severed. Recently, there is the example of Ono Doken. These actions occurred because of simple determination. With martial valor, if one becomes like a revengeful ghost and shows great determination, though his head is cut off, he should not die. "

[ed2276]

I was just reading Ether 15:31.

"And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died."

I've been told that chickens can run after you cut off their heads, but how is this possible?

Because it's their heads that are cut off, not their feet!

[ed2276]

I was just reading Ether 15:31.

"And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he struggled for breath, he died."

I don't think that Shiz thing is possible, and the BOM has an internal inconsistency about it. Nephi lopped off Laban's head, but there is nothing about Laban rising up and struggling for breath. Yet, here is Shiz rising up. Not buying it.

Plus, I watched every Highlander episode and the movie. Lots of dudes had their heads whacked off and not one of them ever rose up struggling for breath.

[ed2276]

I have a little bit different take on this issue.

The Book of Mormon intentionally reflects the King James translation of the Bible. The biblical passage that parallels Ether 15:31 is Judges 5:26:

[Gohan]

I don't think that Shiz thing is possible, and the BOM has an internal inconsistency about it. Nephi lopped off Laban's head, but there is nothing about Laban rising up and struggling for breath. Yet, here is Shiz rising up. Not buying it.

Laban was slightly passed out drunk at the time... But then again, who knows?

I have a little bit different take on this issue.

The Book of Mormon intentionally reflects the King James translation of the Bible. The biblical passage that parallels Ether 15:31 is Judges 5:26:

[ed2276]

Laban was passed out drunk at the time...

People who are passed out drunk don't breathe?

[Gohan]

People who are passed out drunk don't breathe?

Well, yeah, they definitely do, but I was referring to the rising up and struggling to breath part of it.

[ed2276]

Well, yeah, they definitely do, but I was referring to the rising up and struggling to breath part of it.

So, if passed out drunk people still do breathe, why would it not be possible for Laban to rise up struggling for breath after his head had been lopped off?

[Gohan]

Well, admittedly, I haven't read a ton on the subject. The examples cited earlier though, seemed to indicated the behavior of the people who lost their noggin were already in a state of motion or had begun one. I can understand a continuing of their movement in that case.

Not so much with a man passed out drunk; Laban seemed to have some trouble standing up - or staying conscious - with his head. I don't see an increased likelihood of him being able to perform better once he'd lost it.

But that's just me.

[ed2276]

Well, admittedly, I haven't read a ton on the subject. The examples cited earlier though, seemed to indicated the behavior of the people who lost their noggin were already in a state of motion or had begun one. I can understand a continuing of their movement in that case.

Not so much with a man passed out drunk; Laban seemed to have some trouble standing up - or staying conscious - with his head. I don't see an increased likelihood of him being able to perform better once he'd lost it.

But that's just me.

LOL!

[David Bokovoy]

The problem I see with this view is that we are told Nephi took Laban by the hair of the head and smote off his head. Holding Laban's hair by the head suggests doing so in order to stabilize it for removal.

Peter smote off the ear of the soldier,who was coming to arrest Jesus. The Lord had to restore the severed ear to its proper place.

Ammon smote off the arms of the Lamanites and took the severed arms back to the king.

None of these examples suggest that Laban's head, the soldier's ear, or the Lamanites arms were merely crushed.

So, how likely would it be that Shiz's head being smitten off would mean it was just crushed?

What say you?

I say that again, using the Bible as an analogy, one cannot assume that the same word appeared upon the plates in every instance that the Book of Mormon uses the English verb "to smite/smote." Considering the example I provided (which again, is the strongest biblical parallel to the imagery in Ether 15:31), note the use of the English word "smote":

"She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen

[blackstrap]

One can smite with a hammer and hence crush, and one can smite with a sword and hence cut off. The act of smiting will have different results depending on the tool used.

[blackstrap]

Also having beheaded the odd chicken in my life,I will note that some will run around after and some will not. Not every man who loses his head must have the same reaction.

[Sevenbak]

Laban was slightly passed out drunk at the time... But then again, who knows?

I'd never heard that take before, quite interesting. I'm reminded again that I really should take a look at at least learning some basic Hebrew...

I'm not sure how being literate in Hebrew would serve on this subject. The Shiz account was written by Ether in the Adamic language, and translated by Moroni into reformed egyptian, bypassing any Hebrew definition. Also, the Jaredites never had interaction with biblical hebrews, so their understanding of smiting off a head might be different. I think it's safest to take the record at it's word.

[Gohan]

I'm not sure how being literate in Hebrew would serve on this subject. The Shiz account was written by Ether in the Adamic language, and translated by Moroni into reformed egyptian, bypassing any Hebrew definition. Also, the Jaredites never had interaction with biblical hebrews, so their understanding of smiting off a head might be different. I think it's safest to take the record at it's word.

It's really not to relevant to this, you're right. It just reminded me that it'd be a fun - albeit difficult - thing to start to try and learn one of these days.

[David Bokovoy]

I'm not sure how being literate in Hebrew would serve on this subject. The Shiz account was written by Ether in the Adamic language, and translated by Moroni into reformed egyptian, bypassing any Hebrew definition. Also, the Jaredites never had interaction with biblical hebrews, so their understanding of smiting off a head might be different. I think it's safest to take the record at it's word.

Being literate in Hebrew is extremely helpful for this subject. Note the comments provided by Moroni, the editor and translator of the book of Ether:

"And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record" (Mormon 9:33).

The Nephites came out of Jerusalem speaking Hebrew and continued to use an altered form of that language as their native speech. Reformed Egyptian is not a language; it is an altered Egyptian script, personalized by Lehi's family to suit their literary needs.

[David Bokovoy]

One can smite with a hammer and hence crush, and one can smite with a sword and hence cut off. The act of smiting will have different results depending on the tool used.

I believe you may have missed the point that the KJ version of Judges 5:26 states that with a hammer, "she smote off his head," meaning "crushed."

[Sevenbak]

Being literate in Hebrew is extremely helpful for this subject. Note the comments provided by Moroni, the editor and translator of the book of Ether:

"And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record" (Mormon 9:33).

The Nephites came out of Jerusalem speaking Hebrew and continued to use an altered form of that language as their native speech. Reformed Egyptian is not a language; it is an altered Egyptian script, personalized by Lehi's family to suit their literary needs.

I understand what you're saying, but as what we have is a direct translation from the Adamic, into English, via R. Egyptian, I think "smote off his head" means just that. It actually says it twice. And I also think there is a difference from the bible reference you mention, in that Coriantumr was using a sword, as opposed to a hammer and nail.

In this case, I believe the simplest explanation fits best.