"Riddles of the Distant Past"

[BookofMormonLuvr]

An article I found interesting...

http://inexplicata.blogspot.com/2011/03/riddles-of-distant-past.html

[Anijen]

An article I found interesting...

http://inexplicata.blogspot.com/2011/03/riddles-of-distant-past.html

Just my opinion I am highly skeptical person. Anytime Atlantis is mentioned I challenge anyone to find something about Atlantis before the time of Plato (IOW Atlantis is an invention of Plato). In the time since Plato, Atlantis has become a fantastical way to explain away everything from space creatures to the earliest inhabitants of the Earth.

[Ron Beron]

An article I found interesting...

http://inexplicata.b...stant-past.html

It might be my encroaching age, but when I first looked at the blog's title I read: The Journal of Hispanic Urology....must be those habaneros!

[Robert F. Smith]

An article I found interesting...

http://inexplicata.b...stant-past.html

Given that many Phoenician vessels were larger than those of Colombus, and that they were better navigators (they even rounded the Cape of South Africa), it seems odd that anyone would doubt that they encountered the New World more than once. Indeed, some speculate that Mulek and his associates found their way to Zarahemla via a Phoenician vessel. Who knows?

[Robert F. Smith]

Just my opinion I am highly skeptical person. Anytime Atlantis is mentioned I challenge anyone to find something about Atlantis before the time of Plato (IOW Atlantis is an invention of Plato). In the time since Plato, Atlantis has become a fantastical way to explain away everything from space creatures to the earliest inhabitants of the Earth.

Plato does indeed describe Atlantis in fantastic ways. However, like the legends of Troy, that does not mean that there was not an actual historical basis for his tall tales. Many scholars with expertise in Aegean and Hellenistic archeology believe that the source of the legend was the greatness of very ancient Hellenistic civilization -- which ended in the mid-second millennium B.C. with the extraordinarily destructive explosion of the volacanic island of Thera (Santorini) along with the consequent tsunami hitting Minoan Crete and the Greek and Anatolian mainlands (Krakatoa was small in comparison). This effectively ended the high, literate culture of these archaic Greek areas, leaving only legends for Homer and Plato to describe.

Before Schliemann's discovery of Troy, and before the discovery and translation of Linear B by Ventris, everyone believed the notion of a literate archaic culture in the Aegean area was utter nonsense. Archeology has now found extensive Hellenistic influence in Egypt and in the Levantine coast already in the mid-second millennium. So much for the smarm surrounding some broadly accepted notions about the nature of reality.

[Ron Beron]

Plato does indeed describe Atlantis in fantastic ways. However, like the legends of Troy, that does not mean that there was not an actual historical basis for his tall tales. Many scholars with expertise in Aegean and Hellenistic archeology believe that the source of the legend was the greatness of very ancient Hellenistic civilization -- which ended in the mid-second millennium B.C. with the extraordinarily destructive explosion of the volacanic island of Thera (Santorini) along with the consequent tsunami hitting Minoan Crete and the Greek and Anatolian mainlands (Krakatoa was small in comparison). This effectively ended the high, literate culture of these archaic Greek areas, leaving only legends for Homer and Plato to describe.

Before Schliemann's discovery of Troy, and before the discovery and translation of Linear B by Ventris, everyone believed the notion of a literate archaic culture in the Aegean area was utter nonsense. Archeology has now found extensive Hellenistic influence in Egypt and in the Levantine coast already in the mid-second millennium. So much for the smarm surrounding some broadly accepted notions about the nature of reality.

Very nice post, but if I can challenge one small aspect of your comment, "Archeology has now found extensive Hellenistic influence in Egypt and in the Levantine coast ". According to some in an ongoing academic debate that it was the Levantine that influenced Ionian culture which later became Hellenism.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Just my opinion I am highly skeptical person. Anytime Atlantis is mentioned I challenge anyone to find something about Atlantis before the time of Plato (IOW Atlantis is an invention of Plato). In the time since Plato, Atlantis has become a fantastical way to explain away everything from space creatures to the earliest inhabitants of the Earth.

So you believe that it is more likely that Plato made up and convinced people that Atlantis was a real place not a fictional story when they had never heard of such a place before, simply because we cannot find any mention of it prior to his time?

Well little FYI if that is the case you can argue that Socrates was a fictional character as well since Plato was the first to mention him and his entire teachings are non existent before Plato wrote them. In fact many do argue over what is the actual teachings of Socrates and what is the teachings of Plato that Plato puts in Socrates mouth to avoid a similar fate as his martyred mentor.

You understand we are talking about a man who lived almost 3,000 years ago, you don't find a lot of records from over 3,000 years ago, lots of records have been lost forever regarding ancient Greece.

Now I agree that Atlantis is most likely a myth, in the scene that the stories regarding it are so over dramatized that it impossible they actually happened. But to assume that there was never a city called Atlantis that actually sank into the sea just because we have no other record from our small fraction of records from the time before Plato that mentions it, is a big stretch.

If there was no knowledge of Atlantis before Plato how come no one questions Socrates about it's existence in the Timaeus and Critias?

[Anijen]

So you believe that it is more likely that Plato made up and convinced people that Atlantis was a real place not a fictional story when they had never heard of such a place before, simply because we cannot find any mention of it prior to his time?

Well little FYI if that is the case you can argue that Socrates was a fictional character as well since Plato was the first to mention him and his entire teachings are non existent before Plato wrote them. In fact many do argue over what is the actual teachings of Socrates and what is the teachings of Plato that Plato puts in Socrates mouth to avoid a similar fate as his martyred mentor.

You understand we are talking about a man who lived almost 3,000 years ago, you don't find a lot of records from over 3,000 years ago, lots of records have been lost forever regarding ancient Greece.

Now I agree that Atlantis is most likely a myth, in the scene that the stories regarding it are so over dramatized that it impossible they actually happened. But to assume that there was never a city called Atlantis that actually sank into the sea just because we have no other record from our small fraction of records from the time before Plato that mentions it, is a big stretch.

If there was no knowledge of Atlantis before Plato how come no one questions Socrates about it's existence in the Timaeus and Critias?

Hi LDS guy, although history is my major, I would concede to a better history expert like William Hamblin. There are several reason why I think this way, perhaps I am wrong but here is my rational;

We are now in the year 2011 and not a single gem, statue, arm, or anything has been found that connects to Atlantis. Atlantis was a fictional place, a plot device used by Plato to tell a fabulous story of the perseverance of a small, materially poor nation in overcoming a far more powerful country.

Okay let us suppose Atlantis did exist. It was a great advanced cultural society that influenced Asia, Africa and the Americas. Out of all that influence the only source is Plato? Herodotus (the world

[Ron Beron]

Hi LDS guy, although history is my major, I would concede to a better history expert like William Hamblin. There are several reason why I think this way, perhaps I am wrong but here is my rational;

We are now in the year 2011 and not a single gem, statue, arm, or anything has been found that connects to Atlantis. Atlantis was a fictional place, a plot device used by Plato to tell a fabulous story of the perseverance of a small, materially poor nation in overcoming a far more powerful country.

Okay let us suppose Atlantis did exist. It was a great advanced cultural society that influenced Asia, Africa and the Americas. Out of all that influence the only source is Plato? Herodotus (the world

[Robert F. Smith]

Very nice post, but if I can challenge one small aspect of your comment, "Archeology has now found extensive Hellenistic influence in Egypt and in the Levantine coast ". According to some in an ongoing academic debate that it was the Levantine that influenced Ionian culture which later became Hellenism.

Ron,

I briefly present the evidence on p. 3 of my paper "Moses Our Teacher (Moshe Rabbenu)" online at My link. I recall viewing wonderful colorphotos by Spiridon Marinatos (the excavator of Thera) back in 1969 or 1970 in our archeology classroom at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. All of us were tremendously excited to see the wonderful Minoan-style frescoes he had uncovered from beneath tons of volcanic ash. More recently Manfred Bietak was surprised to find the same sort of frescoes during excavation of Avaris, the massive capital of the Hyksos in the Egyptian Delta -- the same sort of frescoes also found in a Canaanite palace at Tel Kabri. This was in the 17th century B.C., over a millennium before Plato. Aegean influences were very strong and the direction of flow of the culture is a matter of consensus, despite minority views.

[Robert F. Smith]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 11 March 2011 - 05:23 PM, said:

An article I found interesting...

http://inexplicata.b...stant-past.html

Just my opinion I am highly skeptical person. Anytime Atlantis is mentioned I challenge anyone to find something about Atlantis before the time of Plato (IOW Atlantis is an invention of Plato). In the time since Plato, Atlantis has become a fantastical way to explain away everything from space creatures to the earliest inhabitants of the Earth.

See now link for a new and rather surprising turn of events in the search for Atlantis.

[Anijen]

See now link for a new and rather surprising turn of events in the search for Atlantis.

I am still not convinced. Perhaps after more information is brought about. I am not likely to jump on the band wagon, it seems every so often some new Atlantis find makes the news and then the scientific community never hears about them again. Once it starts to come out with artifacts and a succession of papers written about the same site then after I further investigate and then if evidence supports it I could jump on the band wagon but for now a bit too early.

[Ron Beron]

Ron,

I briefly present the evidence on p. 3 of my paper "Moses Our Teacher (Moshe Rabbenu)" online at My link. I recall viewing wonderful colorphotos by Spiridon Marinatos (the excavator of Thera) back in 1969 or 1970 in our archeology classroom at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. All of us were tremendously excited to see the wonderful Minoan-style frescoes he had uncovered from beneath tons of volcanic ash. More recently Manfred Bietak was surprised to find the same sort of frescoes during excavation of Avaris, the massive capital of the Hyksos in the Egyptian Delta -- the same sort of frescoes also found in a Canaanite palace at Tel Kabri. This was in the 17th century B.C., over a millennium before Plato. Aegean influences were very strong and the direction of flow of the culture is a matter of consensus, despite minority views.

Thanks for the information. It looks interesting. I, too was fascinated by the info from Thera and accompanying assimilated culture at Avaris ala David Rohl. For the record, and please let me know if I am wrong, are you saying that it was the pre-Greek that influenced the Aegean or that it was later than that, i.e., Mesopotamian which I would argue?

[Robert F. Smith]

Thanks for the information. It looks interesting. I, too was fascinated by the info from Thera and accompanying assimilated culture at Avaris ala David Rohl. For the record, and please let me know if I am wrong, are you saying that it was the pre-Greek that influenced the Aegean or that it was later than that, i.e., Mesopotamian which I would argue?

Of course there was a middle eastern oikumene, with a great deal of trading and cultural influence going on, but I was referring specifically to what we might term the Achaeans, whose language was proto-Greek and who constituted a very advanced and literate culture throughout the Aegean.