consiglieri Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am sure they have, but that is not one of them.No exclamation point? I'm not sure I believe you. Link to comment
consiglieri Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 I take back something I said. There is no "inevitability" about sin. No one has to sin. The fact that as a consequence of the Fall mankind has acquired a tendency to commit sin, does not mean that he has to sin, or that it is necessary for him to sin. It's a shame you have to take back the one thing you have said that was even remotely scriptural.All the Best!--Consiglieri Link to comment
mercyngrace Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I take back something I said. There is no "inevitability" about sin. No one has to sin. The fact that as a consequence of the Fall mankind has acquired a tendency to commit sin, does not mean that he has to sin, or that it is necessary for him to sin. What's your scripture reference for salvation without Christ? Without repentance? Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Here's an interesting quotation for you:"For they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his Only Begotten Son, even him whom he declared should come in the meridian of time, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world." (Moses 5:57)Sounds to me like the fall was a fait accompli.If it was a fait accompli, your scripture does not prove it. Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 No exclamation point? I'm not sure I believe you.Trust me. Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 It's a shame you have to take back the one thing you have said that was even remotely scriptural.I don't think you understand the scriptures very well. Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 What's your scripture reference for salvation without Christ? Without repentance?I don't recall making the claim. Link to comment
consiglieri Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 If it was a fait accompli, your scripture does not prove it.Come now, Zerry Lewis.There would be no need to prepare a savior from before the foundation of the world if God didn't know perfectly well what was going to happen in the Garden.You only make it more painful by forcing me to spell it out for you.All the Best!--Consiglieri Link to comment
mercyngrace Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I don't think you understand the scriptures very well.Oh, bless your heart, Zerinus. I don't know what's sadder that you think he doesn't understand the scriptures or that you think you do. Link to comment
Senator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Come now, Zerry Lewis.There would be no need to prepare a savior from before the foundation of the world if God didn't know perfectly well what was going to happen in the Garden.We all can take great pride in declaring that we are among the faithful majority to have voted for, and participated in plan B! Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Come now, Zerry Lewis.There would be no need to prepare a savior from before the foundation of the world if God didn't know perfectly well what was going to happen in the Garden.You only make it more painful by forcing me to spell it out for you.The implication of your post is that Adam and Eve had no choice in the matter. They did, and your scripture doesn't teach otherwise. Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Oh, bless your heart, Zerinus. I don't know what's sadder that you think he doesn't understand the scriptures or that you think you do.The fact that he doesn't (and neither do you) is the true part of the statement, and therefore the only sad part of the story. Link to comment
consiglieri Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 The fact that he doesn't (and neither do you) is the true part of the statement, and therefore the only sad part of the story.You forgot your premortal break-up with MnG. Link to comment
Senator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I don't recall making the claim.Let me help your memory."It is true that this life is a probationary state so that if we sin we can repent of it and still obtain eternal life." "If" is a conditional. You are granting the possibility of a sinless life. A sinless life needs no Savior. Such a life can then obtain eternal life without Christ. No? Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 You forgot your premortal break-up with MnG.I am sure there was never a breakup! Link to comment
Senator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am sure there was never a breakup! This is getting creepy Link to comment
mercyngrace Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer. ~ NephiAll mankind fell because of Adam.And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever. ~ LehiNo flesh is justified by keeping of the law.And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness. ~ AlmaOur carnal state, mortality, is contrary to the nature of God which means that by our very nature we sin and must be redeemed through the atonement of Christ. Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. ~ AlmaIf a mere mortal were able to pass through life sinless, he would not be subject to spritual death but we see that all mankind were cut off from the presence of God by the Fall. ALL men.And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. ~ The Lord Adam's fall subjected him to spiritual death and he had to be redeemed by Christ. This is the only way men can be redeemed since, as Lehi taught, no flesh is justified.And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; ~ AaronThe Fall eliminated any possibility for a man to merit salvation through a sinless life. Link to comment
mercyngrace Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 This is getting creepyReally creepy. Link to comment
consiglieri Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 And the award for scriptural excellence goes to . . .(opens the envelope). . . MercynGrace!You like me.You really like me! Link to comment
mercyngrace Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Let me help your memory."It is true that this life is a probationary state so that if we sin we can repent of it and still obtain eternal life." "If" is a conditional. You are granting the possibility of a sinless life. A sinless life needs no Savior. Such a life can then obtain eternal life without Christ. No?Maybe Zerinus is after the order of Nehor. The Zoramites were, and they believed men needed no Savior and could be saved without repentance. Link to comment
mercyngrace Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 And the award for scriptural excellence goes to . . .(opens the envelope). . . MercynGrace!You like me.You really like me!And Zerinus leaps up onstage like Kanye West, ripping the award right out of my hands... Link to comment
LeSellers Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Sounds to me like the fall was a fait accompli.Yes, in Father's mind, it had already happened, and it (The Fall, with serious capitals) was needed to allow the rest of us to come into mortality so we could thence go on to immortality and Eternal Life. Father, Who knows the end from the beginning knew Adam and Eve would Fall and enter the Telestial world. It was a mandatory part of the Plan. That has no bearing at all on whether God wants us to sin, nor on whether our sinning is a mandatory part of the Plan of Salvation. Lehi Link to comment
Senator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 And the award for scriptural excellence goes to . . .(opens the envelope). . . MercynGrace!You like me.You really like me!I'm just waiting for a wardrobe malfuntion. Link to comment
zerinus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 And the award for scriptural excellence goes to . . .(opens the envelope). . . MercynGrace!If that is your criterion, the Evangelicals would win hands down. She isn't being any more clever than they are. This false theology is nothing new. Link to comment
LeSellers Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Maybe Zerinus is after the order of Nehor. The Zoramites were, and they believed men needed no Savior and could be saved without repentance.That's both unfair and uncalled-for. No one has suggested that we can be saved without Christ. We need His Atonement for salvation from physical death, even if, hypothetically, there were anyone, apart from Jesus Christ, who had lived a sinless life. As all of us have sinned, the question is purely hypothetical, but I ask once again, if there were no sin a person A's life, what is it that he needs to repent of? Repentance presupposes a sin. No sin, no need for repentance. It is only because of sin that the second principle of the Gospel is "Repentance". I am reminded again of why hypothetical situation are so unrewarding in most cases. Especially when the hypothetical is not ever going to happen. Too much of the real world is lost in the necessary suppositions. Lehi Link to comment
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