A Question about the Word of Wisdom

[Libs]

I was having a discussion with a friend about a sports star who had been banned from a BYU team (basketball, I think?) for an ethics violation. He didn't know, specifically, what the violation was, but a question arose about whether or not it could have been something like drinking coffee or tea (which goes against the WofW). Until this discussion, I didn't know that BYU students, who were non-LDS, had to abide by the WofW, just like members of the Church. I have, since, seen the ethics contract that students have to sign, and it is, indeed, a part of the contract.

So, then, I told him that it was my understanding (from other church members I have known) that non-LDS, who have not entered into that covenant, are not responsible for adhering to the WofW. So, I wondered why non-LDS are expected to obey the WofW at BYU? They are not accountable to God (was my understanding), if they haven't entered into that covenant?

And, is it really possible that this team-mate could have been suspended, simply for having a cup of coffee?

(Sorry, this is new to me, even though I was LDS - I was a convert and in the church for only six and half years, and know very little about BYU or their sports program)..

[BCSpace]

So, I wondered why non-LDS are expected to obey the WofW at BYU?

Because they are representing the university which upholds those values and teaches them to the world. I wouldn't be suprised that a secondary reason would be, besides the value to one's health, the idea that they might see the wisdom in it and consider joining the Church from which these values flow.

[Libs]

Are these really dumb questions?

Or does no one, honestly, have answers?

I am asking sincerely. Not intended as a judgment, I promise.

I remember one of my aunts asking me if I thought she was sinning by drinking coffee. I told her she was under no obligation to abstain, because she hadn't made the same promises, to God, that I had made. Was that wrong?

[Libs]

Because they are representing the university which upholds those values and teaches them to the world. I wouldn't be suprised that a secondary reason would be, besides the value to one's health, the idea that they might see the wisdom in it and consider joining the Church from which these values flow.

Ah...okay, thank you, BC. I didn't see your post, before I posted mine.

But, would non-LDS be held accountable to God (per LDS theology)?

[Palerider]

I was having a discussion with a friend about a sports star who had been banned from a BYU team (basketball, I think?) for an ethics violation. He didn't know, specifically, what the violation was, but a question arose about whether or not it could have been something like drinking coffee or tea (which goes against the WofW). Until this discussion, I didn't know that BYU students, who were non-LDS, had to abide by the WofW, just like members of the Church. I have, since, seen the ethics contract that students have to sign, and it is, indeed, a part of the contract.

So, then, I told him that it was my understanding (from other church members I have known) that non-LDS, who have not entered into that covenant, are not responsible for adhering to the WofW. So, I wondered why non-LDS are expected to obey the WofW at BYU? They are not accountable to God (was my understanding), if they haven't entered into that covenant?

And, is it really possible that this team-mate could have been suspended, simply for having a cup of coffee?

(Sorry, this is new to me, even though I was LDS - I was a convert and in the church for only six and half years, and know very little about BYU or their sports program)..

Although he could be technically in breach with a cup of coffee, my gut says that most likely no one would get in a frenzy over it. More likely a somewhat larger and more public offense (of some sort) was behind the banning.

[Palerider]

Ah...okay, thank you, BC. I didn't see your post, before I posted mine.

But, would non-LDS be held accountable to God (per LDS theology)?

No, only to the University.

[Libs]

Although he could be technically in breach with a cup of coffee, my gut says that most likely no one would get in a frenzy over it. More likely a somewhat larger and more public offense (of some sort) was behind the banning.

Yes, I was kind of thinking the same thing. Thanks for the input.

[Libs]

No, only to the University.

So, it would not be a teaching of the Church that all non-LDS are held accountable for the WofW? I didn't think so, but someone told me that the WofW was a commandment that applied to all of mankind.

[TAO]

So, it would not be a teaching of the Church that all non-LDS are held accountable for the WofW? I didn't think so, but someone told me that the WofW was a commandment that applied to all of mankind.

Nah, only to those whom take it to their heart. Basically, knowledge, accountability thing. If you don't know and believe in the LDS church, you are not going to be held as accountable before the law.

[Calm]

And, is it really possible that this team-mate could have been suspended, simply for having a cup of coffee?

Unlikely, unless the individual had discussed this with his leaders (whether church or school) and outright refused to comply with the Honor Code's requirements.

[Calm]

No, only to the University.

In the sense that God may not see committing to the Honor Code as a commitment to him personally, I would agree; but I think God is concerned about how we treat our fellowmen and whether or not we live up to our commitments with them.

[Calm]

someone told me that the WofW was a commandment that applied to all of mankind.

I'd asked them for their reasoning on that, they may be thinking along the lines of the commandments that Christ gave in the NT and at any time else during this world's existense to all mankind even those who were born, lived and died who never even heard of Christ's name. In one sense that could be said to be true, God's commandments are his commandments whether or not one knows of them or of God, however God in his mercy does not hold accountable those who do not have knowledge of his commandments as commandments, whether that is a total ignorance or a partial ignorance where they are aware of the teaching but do not view it as either a commandment or have not made a personal commitment with God to follow it.

Having said that I believe there are consequences for not following God's commandments, even if most of the time (imo) it's primarily just not being able to receive the blessings that God gives to those who seek to align their will with his Will.

[thesometimesaint]

Libs:

While the WoW is only for LDS or those trying to be. Something tells me that it was not just for a cup of coffee.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, it would not be a teaching of the Church that all non-LDS are held accountable for the WofW? I didn't think so, but someone told me that the WofW was a commandment that applied to all of mankind.

Only those in the church are bound by it. After all "further light ant knoweldge" play into this. If some one does not know it is bad how can they be held accountable.

[Palerider]

For those of you who are wondering, the press is reporting this regarding the BYU student who was banned.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/BYU-dismisses-basketball-player-for-having-sex-030211?GT1=39002

[Libs]

I'd asked them for their reasoning on that, they may be thinking along the lines of the commandments that Christ gave in the NT and at any time else during this world's existense to all mankind even those who were born, lived and died who never even heard of Christ's name. In one sense that could be said to be true, God's commandments are his commandments whether or not one knows of them or of God, however God in his mercy does not hold accountable those who do not have knowledge of his commandments as commandments, whether that is a total ignorance or a partial ignorance where they are aware of the teaching but do not view it as either a commandment or have not made a personal commitment with God to follow it.

Having said that I believe there are consequences for not following God's commandments, even if most of the time (imo) it's primarily just not being able to receive the blessings that God gives to those who seek to align their will with his Will.

Thanks, Calmoriah...that was his reasoning, as you stated above, that the WofW is like any other commandment given in the Bible. Appreciate your input.

[Libs]

For those of you who are wondering, the press is reporting this regarding the BYU student who was banned.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/BYU-dismisses-basketball-player-for-having-sex-030211?GT1=39002

Thanks, Palerider. I was just coming here to bring that information.

From your article:

"Brandon Davies was kicked off the BYU team for having sex with his girlfriend.

According to the Salt Lake Tribune, the 6-foot-9 sophomore forward

[Libs]

As for my question, as to whether or not non-LDS are held accountable for the WofW...the answers I'm getting seem to indicate that, although it would be better for everyone, if they lived the Word of Wisdom, non-LDS will not be held accountable, by God, on the same level that LDS, who have made a covenant, will be held accountable (although, as Calmoriah said, there may be some consequences, even for non-LDS).

[frankenstein]

As for my question, as to whether or not non-LDS are held accountable for the WofW...the answers I'm getting seem to indicate that, although it would be better for everyone, if they lived the Word of Wisdom, non-LDS will not be held accountable, by God, on the same level that LDS, who have made a covenant, will be held accountable (although, as Calmoriah said, there may be some consequences, even for non-LDS).

where there is no law there is no accountability, I believe Alma says as much in the Book of Mormon. Those who do not know the law are not held accountable for it. And it would be unjust, to punish someone for something they did not know.

as for consequences, there are always consequences, bad breathe, discolored teeth, etc.

[AKS]

As a UNM fan I say long live the honor code!

[Libs]

where there is no law there is no accountability, I believe Alma says as much in the Book of Mormon. Those who do not know the law are not held accountable for it. And it would be unjust, to punish someone for something they did not know.

as for consequences, there are always consequences, bad breathe, discolored teeth, etc.

Okay, thanks, frank.

I am sure God intends for consequences to move us towards accountability. Although, I do not believe that drinking coffee and tea are sins, to which anyone is held accountable - my, personal, belief. Alcohol can be a sin, if it is abused. I do agree that sexual sin is real sin, and I am glad this young man confessed, even though the consequences were heavy. That shows real integrity.

[LDS Guy 1986]

So, I wondered why non-LDS are expected to obey the WofW at BYU?

This is the requirements that the school chooses to enforce, this is the schools standards and while they reflect the standards of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Church has not power of BYU. BYU chooses to enforce these ethics rules, those who attend agree to comply by the rules, if they break the rules they can be subject to disciplinary actions by the University (not the Church) up to and including expulsion from the University.

They are not accountable to God (was my understanding), if they haven't entered into that covenant?

Correct if they are not members of the Church so the Church will not do anything. They did enter into a legal contract with Brigham Young University to abide by certain standards while attending the University, if they violate these standards they voluntarily agreed to then there enrollment can be revoked. These person are not receiving a religious punishment but a scholastic punishment, it isn't the Church that is taking these actions but the Board of Trustees of BYU.

[Libs]

Yes, I understand about the contract with the school.

I guess, I was more wondering what LDS believed about accountability to God, for non-LDS (to things like the WofW). I think I did get an answer on that.