Can those that reject the Gospel in this life still receive Celestial Glory?

[LDS Guy 1986]

In another thread an interesting topic can up, can those who reject Jesus Christ and his restored Gospel in this world receive exaltation through accepting it in the Spirit World?

I feel that D&C 76: 71-75 is clear of this topic, " . . .we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men."

What are your thoughts?

Can people reject Christ there whole mortal life, accept him in the spirit world and recieve Celestial Glory?

Or are they only able to receive Terrestrial Glory?

[zerinus]

In another thread an interesting topic can up, can those who reject Jesus Christ and his restored Gospel in this world receive exaltation through accepting it in the Spirit World?

I feel that D&C 76: 71-75 is clear of this topic, " . . .we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men."

What are your thoughts?

Can people reject Christ there whole mortal life, accept him in the spirit world and recieve Celestial Glory?

Or are they only able to receive Terrestrial Glory?

I think there are several degrees of rejection. Merely not joining the Church after hearing the gospel may not necessarily seal one's fate to a lesser kingdom. Only God can determine that. I think that D&C 137 speaks to this subject. Only God know if someone "would have received it" had they been allowed to "tarry," or live long enough; therefore only God can make that determination. We can't.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think there are several degrees of rejection. Merely not joining the Church after hearing the gospel may not necessarily seal one's fate to a lesser kingdom. Only God can determine that. I think that D&C 137 speaks to this subject. Only God know if someone "would have received it" had they been allowed to "tarry," or live long enough; therefore only God can make that determination. We can't.

I agree completely, it's not our job to judge. I also agree that there could be varying degrees of rejection, and this is Christ job to sift through all this.

But, the question I was asking was:

Do you think though that someone who never receives a testimony of Christ because they reject the restored gospel of Jesus Christ in this life due to the cleverness of man can enter into celestial glory, even though D&C 76 says that they can't?

If you don't want to answer because you feel that is judging I understand, but what I am looking for is an answer to this specific question.

Thanks for your input on D&C 137!

[LDS Guy 1986]

Only God know if someone "would have received it" had they been allowed to "tarry," or live long enough; therefore only God can make that determination. We can't.

I believe that this verse only applies to those who never heard the message of the restored Gospel. Look at D&C 137:7 "Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

It seems to say that only those how died without a knowledge of this Gospel (the restored Gospel) like the Prophet's brother could receive it in the spirit world and receive celestial glory.

I don't think this verse was meant to apply to those who die with a knowledge of the restored Gospel.

Now you are correct to ask what constitutes a knowledge of the Gospel. Is it hearing of the Church? Is it receiving a copy of the BoM? Is it receiving the missionary discussions? Is it being baptized?

That can be discussed further, when does someone receive a knowledge of the restored gospel?

[rpn]

I don't think there is any way for us to know other than that Heavenly Father loves us and He has NOT set us up for failure. And He doesn' t punish us for other's sins. And He sees our heart and intentions, as well as our actions. And that humans OTOH often don't have any clue about what another's understanding, capability or even expectation for IS. I certainly would live my live as though this was it. But I suspect that it will only be IT for those who really made an informed choice to refuse.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't think there is any way for us to know other than that Heavenly Father loves us and He has NOT set us up for failure. And He doesn' t punish us for other's sins. And He sees our heart and intentions, as well as our actions. And that humans OTOH often don't have any clue about what another's understanding, capability or even expectation for IS. I certainly would live my live as though this was it. But I suspect that it will only be IT for those who really made an informed choice to refuse.

I can see the logic your using! This does make much sense, the million dollar question is what is an informed choice?

[zerinus]

I agree completely, it's not our job to judge. I also agree that there could be varying degrees of rejection, and this is Christ job to sift through all this.

But, the question I was asking was:

Do you think though that someone who never receives a testimony of Christ because they reject the restored gospel of Jesus Christ in this life due to the cleverness of man can enter into celestial glory, even though D&C 76 says that they can't?

If you don't want to answer because you feel that is judging I understand, but what I am looking for is an answer to this specific question.

Thanks for your input on D&C 137!

I suppose if you word it precisely as D&C 76, then the answer would have to be no, but the catch is how to determine if someone has fulfilled that condition or not. I don't think we are equipped to make that determination.

[zerinus]

I believe that this verse only applies to those who never heard the message of the restored Gospel. Look at D&C 137:7 "Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

It seems to say that only those how died without a knowledge of this Gospel (the restored Gospel) like the Prophet's brother could receive it in the spirit world and receive celestial glory.

I don't think this verse was meant to apply to those who die with a knowledge of the restored Gospel.

Now you are correct to ask what constitutes a knowledge of the Gospel. Is it hearing of the Church? Is it receiving a copy of the BoM? Is it receiving the missionary discussions? Is it being baptized?

That can be discussed further, when does someone receive a knowledge of the restored gospel?

I would rather turn that question around to this: "Would they have accepted the gospel if they had been allowed to "tarry"? If you can answer that question, then you have answered your own question; but I am not aware of anyone who can answer that question with regard to someone else. So your question remains moot.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I suppose if you word it precisely as D&C 76, then the answer would have to be no, but the catch is how to determine if someone has fulfilled that condition or not. I don't think we are equipped to make that determination.

I agree we are not able to judge such things. I was only wondering out loud after someone tried to tell me in another post that you can reject the gospel in this life, accept it in the spirit world and receive celestial glory.

I presume to judge no one only see what people think about this topic!

Thanks for sharing!

[thesometimesaint]

If someone were to knowingly procrastinate the day of their repentance till death. Then there is no second chance. All will have ample opportunity to hear, fully understand the Gospel, and accept or reject the Gospel knowing fully what that rejection means. But ONLY God has the ability to make that determination.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I would rather turn that question around to this: "Would they have accepted the gospel if they had been allowed to "tarry"? If you can answer that question, then you have answered your own question; but I am not aware of anyone who can answer that question with regard to someone else. So your question remains moot.

See I don't think you can do that because if they had a knowledge of the restored Gospel but never accepted the restored Gospel before they passed away they had all the time to tarry that God allowed them to have according to D&C 76.

The point of the "if they had tarried", is that those who never heard of the restored Gospel in this life can accept it in the spirit world.

[LDS Guy 1986]

If someone were to knowingly procrastinate the day of their repentance till death. Then there is no second chance. All will have ample opportunity to hear, fully understand the Gospel, and accept or reject the Gospel knowing fully what that rejection means. But ONLY God has the ability to make that determination.

I agree that only God can determine who accepted or rejected the Gospel, I hope people do not think this is a holy roller convention! LOL

[LDSToronto]

I don't have time for a long reply, so I'll just make a couple of quick points:

1) D&C 76 seems to lay it all out there, but it's unclear what "received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh" means. For instance, I think it's possible to believe in Jesus Christ, his teachings, and his atonement, as per the Book of Mormon, while doubting the origin story of the Book of Mormon.

2) Modern day prophets have made statements that add to the ambiguity of one's destination after death.

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't have time for a long reply, so I'll just make a couple of quick points:

1) D&C 76 seems to lay it all out there, but it's unclear what "received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh" means. For instance, I think it's possible to believe in Jesus Christ, his teachings, and his atonement, as per the Book of Mormon, while doubting the origin story of the Book of Mormon.

2) Modern day prophets have made statements that add to the ambiguity of one's destination after death.

H.

See, it does seem that there is no clear answer! It always seems that way, guess we got to chalk one more up to "to be revealed later"!

[Obiwan]

I agree completely, it's not our job to judge. I also agree that there could be varying degrees of rejection, and this is Christ job to sift through all this.

But, the question I was asking was:

Do you think though that someone who never receives a testimony of Christ because they reject the restored gospel of Jesus Christ in this life due to the cleverness of man can enter into celestial glory, even though D&C 76 says that they can't?

If you don't want to answer because you feel that is judging I understand, but what I am looking for is an answer to this specific question.

Thanks for your input on D&C 137!

I'm a convert to the Church, I once left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion.

I'm now a full believer for years and even forever.

If I had died when I was in apostasy, and then was taught in the Spirit World the truth, I would of course have accepted the Gospel.

Now, if I was worthy enough, I could still make the Celestial Kingdom. After all, God knew my heart, God knew my actions. He knows that if I was allowed to tarry long enough to actually "know" the Gospel, that I would have accepted it.

See, when you read D&C 76, you need to keep in mind the entire Gospel, not simply interpret it literally.

After all, what does it mean to have knowledge? In other words, God isn't going to judge us for being mistaken. He'll judge us based on who we are. Remember, the Final Judgment is based on ones works when the book of life is opened. They EVERYONE, no matter who they are or what they think they know are going to be judged according to their hearts and their actions based on what GOD gave them.

So, the answer is, yes, some individuals, even if they heard the Gospel, still might not have had enough understanding of it to accept it. If they are sufficiently of God of the Light, then they will be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom. Remember, Exalting Ordinances are performed for all, thus all have a chance. Remember Christ went and visited those who were in Prison, so they could be judged the same as according to those in the flesh.

[Obiwan]

This is actually a good example of how people "misinterpret" things in the Bible, and then create false doctrine based on them.

Like the "God is Spirit" verse. It seems direct, but further thinking and expansion on ALL the BIBLE and one realizes that it's simply saying God is Spirit. It's not saying God is "only" Spirit, because through knowing other scriptures we can see that can't actually be true, both by implication and by the fact that the same expression is used for man. And we all know that man isn't "only" spirit, or this or that.

Likewise, D&C 76 seems to say that people who had any sort of "knowledge" of the Church are relegated to a lower kingdom. But, you have to look at it closer, and understand it in context of ALL scripture, not simply that scripture alone.

This is a common problem with anti-mormons. They not only take things out of context with the surrounding context of scriptures, leaders words, etc., but they also take things out of context with the entire Gospel/Church teachings, scriptures, leaders words themselves ALL TOGETHER. For example, anti's like to claim some mormon doctrine simply because some leader or a couple said something. Well, that's never been the standard for what makes doctrine within mormonism. Ideas, whether inspired or correct or not, promoted some or otherwise within the Church has never made doctrine of the Church, even if "some" believe it to be so.

Anyway, some thoughts.

[zerinus]

See I don't think you can do that because if they had a knowledge of the restored Gospel but never accepted the restored Gospel before they passed away they had all the time to tarry that God allowed them to have according to D&C 76.

The point of the "if they had tarried", is that those who never heard of the restored Gospel in this life can accept it in the spirit world.

You are equating "hearing" with "accepting" or "rejecting". They might have "heard" of the gospel, but for one reason or another not been prepared to accept it at that time. "Hearing" is not equivalent to "accepting" or "rejecting".

[Jeff K.]

I'm a convert to the Church, I once left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion.

I'm now a full believer for years and even forever.

If I had died when I was in apostasy, and then was taught in the Spirit World the truth, I would of course have accepted the Gospel.

Now, if I was worthy enough, I could still make the Celestial Kingdom. After all, God knew my heart, God knew my actions. He knows that if I was allowed to tarry long enough to actually "know" the Gospel, that I would have accepted it.

See, when you read D&C 76, you need to keep in mind the entire Gospel, not simply interpret it literally.

After all, what does it mean to have knowledge? In other words, God isn't going to judge us for being mistaken. He'll judge us based on who we are. Remember, the Final Judgment is based on ones works when the book of life is opened. They EVERYONE, no matter who they are or what they think they know are going to be judged according to their hearts and their actions based on what GOD gave them.

So, the answer is, yes, some individuals, even if they heard the Gospel, still might not have had enough understanding of it to accept it. If they are sufficiently of God of the Light, then they will be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom. Remember, Exalting Ordinances are performed for all, thus all have a chance. Remember Christ went and visited those who were in Prison, so they could be judged the same as according to those in the flesh.

As a convert I agree.

[Rob Osborn]

In another thread an interesting topic can up, can those who reject Jesus Christ and his restored Gospel in this world receive exaltation through accepting it in the Spirit World?

I feel that D&C 76: 71-75 is clear of this topic, " . . .we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men."

What are your thoughts?

Can people reject Christ there whole mortal life, accept him in the spirit world and recieve Celestial Glory?

Or are they only able to receive Terrestrial Glory?

We must look back at another verse in section 76 to understand a simple point. Here-

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:72)

Here is the simple fact that something is amiss in our dosctrine- our flawed understanding. Who is a person qualified as "dying without law"? Could it be a child? Very much so. A small child is alive in Christ but yet without law. If he dies before becoming accountable he thus dies without law. Let's look at another example. Take a handicapped person. They live their whole lives outside of the law. When they die, they die without law. Another example- take a wild indian running around the rain forests of the Amazon, when he dies he does so without law. All of these cases have individuals who have died without law.

So, are children going to be outside the Celestial kingdom forever then because they died without law? What about handicapped people? What about all the masses who never even heard of Christ and all died without law?

Personally I believe that we will all go to the terrestrial kingdom- every single one of us! But that isn't an eternal kingdom, but a temporary kingdom- a kingdom where all those who died without law can learn to live it. When is that kingdom? It's right after this kingdom- the telestial gets over with.

[BCSpace]

Can people reject Christ there whole mortal life, accept him in the spirit world and recieve Celestial Glory?

No, they cannot as per the aforementioned D&C 76.

So, are children going to be outside the Celestial kingdom forever then because they died without law? What about handicapped people? What about all the masses who never even heard of Christ and all died without law?

What was not included in the OP was the phrase "but afterwards received it" (vs 74). This implies they had an actual chance so I don't think those you mention fit into the group described by the OP who reject Christ their whole lives.

Also, since I define receving the testimony of Jesus as joining the LDS Church or ancient equivalent, I am defining rejecting Christ as rejecting the LDS Church. I don't think this is unreasonable at all especially in the context of the thread since the poll question was actually about rejecting the Gospel which is true and complete only when presented by the LDS Church.

Because all other churches are false and contain abominable teachings and doctrines, I don't necessarily blame someone for rejecting a nonLDS Christ because of the examples of those churches. And even when they come into contact with the LDS Church, I personally feel the Spirit must testify.

So if one follows this line of reasoning, perhaps the questions that should be asked then are does the Spirit testifiy with every contact with the LDS Church? Does it count as an opportunity if the Spirit testifies and the person does not hear or recognize it? And so of course we find again that we really can't answer because we don't have enough information.

[LDS Guy 1986]

This is actually a good example of how people "misinterpret" things in the Bible, and then create false doctrine based on them.

Like the "God is Spirit" verse. It seems direct, but further thinking and expansion on ALL the BIBLE and one realizes that it's simply saying God is Spirit. It's not saying God is "only" Spirit, because through knowing other scriptures we can see that can't actually be true, both by implication and by the fact that the same expression is used for man. And we all know that man isn't "only" spirit, or this or that.

Likewise, D&C 76 seems to say that people who had any sort of "knowledge" of the Church are relegated to a lower kingdom. But, you have to look at it closer, and understand it in context of ALL scripture, not simply that scripture alone.

This is a common problem with anti-mormons. They not only take things out of context with the surrounding context of scriptures, leaders words, etc., but they also take things out of context with the entire Gospel/Church teachings, scriptures, leaders words themselves ALL TOGETHER. For example, anti's like to claim some mormon doctrine simply because some leader or a couple said something. Well, that's never been the standard for what makes doctrine within mormonism. Ideas, whether inspired or correct or not, promoted some or otherwise within the Church has never made doctrine of the Church, even if "some" believe it to be so.

Anyway, some thoughts.

So then how do we ever know what to follow?

If there is nothing literal, how do we understand what is truth and what isn't?

[LDS Guy 1986]

You are equating "hearing" with "accepting" or "rejecting". They might have "heard" of the gospel, but for one reason or another not been prepared to accept it at that time. "Hearing" is not equivalent to "accepting" or "rejecting".

As I have said before the big question is what is rejection, how would you define rejecting the restored Gospel?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't think there is any way for us to know other than that Heavenly Father loves us and He has NOT set us up for failure. And He doesn' t punish us for other's sins.

I agree that HF would never set us up for failure nor would he punish us for others sins, I don't believe this is what the question is asking.

What it is asking is if someone rejects the restored Gospel there entire life, can they receive Celestial Glory.

I feel that D&C 76 and D&C 137, clearly say no, that rejection of Christ in this life, which is to reject his Gospel means one can never enter Celestial Glory, they can only receive Terrestrial Glory.

The "reject Christ in this life but accept him after", "Those deceived by the cleverness of men" from 76 and "Those who died without a knowledge" in 137 all seem to point that if you hear the message of the restored Gospel in this life and reject it you can never receive a fullness of joy. This is also consistent with the teachings in the BoM that this life is our time to prepare to meet our God.

I feel that Baptism for the Dead and the other proxy ordinances combined with those who receive the gospel in the Spirit World, is not a second chance to accept the Gospel you rejected in this life and enter Celestial Glory, like some suggest. It appears to me if you go by the scriptures that it is meant only for those who never had access to the restored gospel in there lifetime, now of course how does one really know if parents or grandparents ever heard the message of the restored Gospel, if they passed away when you were young or before you were born?

[LDS Guy 1986]

We must look back at another verse in section 76 to understand a simple point. Here-

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:72)

Here is the simple fact that something is amiss in our dosctrine- our flawed understanding. Who is a person qualified as "dying without law"? Could it be a child? Very much so. A small child is alive in Christ but yet without law.

So, are children going to be outside the Celestial kingdom forever then because they died without law? What about handicapped people? What about all the masses who never even heard of Christ and all died without law?

Now this is an obviously taking the verse out of context, you know that the Lord is referring to those who have reached the age of accountability here. Also Section 137 covers this since a child cannot have a knowledge of the Gospel so they can receive it in the spirit world and still attain Celestial Glory.

This also applies to the mentally handicapped and those who died without ever hearing the message of the restored Gospel.

This is clearly presented in previous posts.

[LDS Guy 1986]

What was not included in the OP was the phrase "but afterwards received it" (vs 74). This implies they had an actual chance so I don't think those you mention fit into the group described by the OP who reject Christ their whole lives.

Actually this is mentioned in the OP and is underlined, just for clarification.

Also, since I define receving the testimony of Jesus as joining the LDS Church or ancient equivalent, I am defining rejecting Christ as rejecting the LDS Church. I don't think this is unreasonable at all especially in the context of the thread since the poll question was actually about rejecting the Gospel which is true and complete only when presented by the LDS Church.

Because all other churches are false and contain abominable teachings and doctrines, I don't necessarily blame someone for rejecting a nonLDS Christ because of the examples of those churches. And even when they come into contact with the LDS Church, I personally feel the Spirit must testify.

So if one follows this line of reasoning, perhaps the questions that should be asked then are does the Spirit testifiy with every contact with the LDS Church? Does it count as an opportunity if the Spirit testifies and the person does not hear or recognize it? And so of course we find again that we really can't answer because we don't have enough information.

This is how I feel also, a lifetime of rejection of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a rejection of the Restored Gospel and disqualifies someone from attaining Celestial Glory, they can only attain Terrestrial Glory as outlined in the scriptures. I never thought that this would be such a divided issue but it appears from the unscientific poll I conducted that it is a very split issue.