zelder Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Mormons believe in God, priesthood, miracles. I find that most mormons do not believe in magic. Mormon 1:19 suggests that mormons should believe in magic. Do you believe in magic? If magic by the power of the devil is real, how do you know what is magic and what is just a trick? Link to comment
44Foxtrot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Mormons believe in God, priesthood, miracles. I find that most mormons do not believe in magic. Mormon 1:19 suggests that mormons should believe in magic. Do you believe in magic? If magic by the power of the devil is real, how do you know what is magic and what is just a trick?How is a miracle different from magic? Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Do you believe in magic? Yes, I believe that any supernatural powers (ESP, Tarot Cards, Psychics, ect) is magic and that it derives it's power from Satan. The Bible and Book of Mormon tell us that Satan has the ability to duplicate the spiritual gifts of God, through his magic. In Exodus the magicians used magic to duplicate some of God's plagues against Egypt.If magic by the power of the devil is real, how do you know what is magic and what is just a trick? A trick is just that some simple sleight of hand that a entertainer uses to memorize audiences. Mediums who healing the sick, predicting the future, ect is not a trick but the power of magic at work. Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 How is a miracle different from magic?A miracle is by the Priesthood power of God, magic is the power of Satan mimicking the priesthood power of God. Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I guess it's time to drag this out again. From my blog:Magic and a Latter-day Saint worldview.Disclaimer: nothing in this post should be taken aspostulating that every member of the Church should practice magic or thatmagical practice and theory should be taught or promoted by the Church. Rather, it falls under the principle taughtin D&C 58:27.Definition and TheoryChristian mage Dion Fortune defined magic as Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I guess it's time to drag this out again. From my blog:Magic and a Latter-day Saint worldview.Disclaimer: nothing in this post should be taken aspostulating that every member of the Church should practice magic or thatmagical practice and theory should be taught or promoted by the Church. Rather, it falls under the principle taughtin D&C 58:27. Definition and Theory Christian mage Dion Fortune defined magic as Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Moroni 7:16-17 does not make using satanic powers for "good" ok. According to Moroni 7:16-17 one cannot use magic for good since nothing of the devil can be used for good only evil."Satanic" powers, no. Natural forces, yes. Or is it wrong to use electricity or gravity or...? I'm not as charitable as Brother Smith (or at least not as diplomatic), so...I begin to wonder why someone who claims to be LDS is so...fundamentalist. You do know that Joseph Smith and his family practiced folk magic back in the day, right? Yours under the enchanted oaks,Nathair /|\ Link to comment
Calm Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Mormons believe in God, priesthood, miracles. I find that most mormons do not believe in magic. Mormon 1:19 suggests that mormons should believe in magic. Do you believe in magic? If magic by the power of the devil is real, how do you know what is magic and what is just a trick?Define "magic" please. Link to comment
Deborah Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Define "magic" please.I agree. I think people have different ideas on that. Link to comment
Jeff K. Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Magic is a relative term.I do not believe God uses supernatural means but rather is able to manipulate the natural to create what we might call miracles. Link to comment
Monster Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 A miracle is by the Priesthood power of God, magic is the power of Satan mimicking the priesthood power of God.So how do you tell the difference? They both would seem to be supernatural. Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So how do you tell the difference? They both would seem to be supernatural.Since I am likely the only person active on this board who actually practices magic (wish Tzusuki was around), I'll do my best.From my perspective, magic involves using one's own abilities to tap into the life force to achieve your own goals (righteous or not), miracles involve an extraordinary entity (God) using His power to achieve His ends, often at our request.Yours under the mystic oaks,Nathair /|\ Link to comment
sunstoned Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Disclaimer: nothing in this post should be taken aspostulating that every member of the Church should practice magic or thatmagical practice and theory should be taught or promoted by the Church. Rather, it falls under the principle taughtin D&C 58:27.I tend to believe along these lines myself. I feel that the term "supernatural" is often used to describe something we do not understand yet. 200 years ago people might have called electricity supernatural. To take this a little farther, I am coming to believe that organized religions are mainly men's attempt to explain this life force. Link to comment
SkepticTheist Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Mormons believe in God, priesthood, miracles. I find that most mormons do not believe in magic. Mormon 1:19 suggests that mormons should believe in magic. Do you believe in magic? If magic by the power of the devil is real, how do you know what is magic and what is just a trick?Being decieved by a con artist who claims supernatural power and doesn't have it, even when Satan is not performing something "miraculous" is still someone following the devil, so it is therefore still a manifestation of the power of the evil one.Ed Goble Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Examples of common modern-day superstitions among Church members:The Book of Mormon has a power that can be felt just by looking at it or touching it. It can even protect you from bullets if you carry it in your pocket.Sacred temple clothing (worn worthily) will protect you against physical harm (there is no doctrinal basis for this belief whatsoever)If you don't read the Book of Mormon every day, something terrible will happen to you during that daySuperstition (or magical belief) arises from ignorance or fear, whereas faith comes from experience (faith-promoting experiences AND the experience that comes with time) and hope. Link to comment
zelder Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Define "magic" please.Good question. Okay, how about voodoo. Real or not? How about someone like Chris Angel? Illusion or real? For example, he can take a card, let you write on it, slap the card on the bald head of a man and the card is gone. Next he takes a knife and cuts open the man's scalp to reveal the card under the scalp and pulls the bloody card out from under the skin. Illusion or black magic? Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Good question. Okay, how about voodoo. Real or not? How about someone like Chris Angel? Illusion or real? For example, he can take a card, let you write on it, slap the card on the bald head of a man and the card is gone. Next he takes a knife and cuts open the man's scalp to reveal the card under the scalp and pulls the bloody card out from under the skin. Illusion or black magic?Voodoo seems to work, though I don't know anyone who has tried it, the occult scholars I have talked to seem to respect it. I don't know enough about it to talk about it's ethics, but it seems to go both ways. It depends on the ethics of the practitioner. My system is based on the Golden Dawn, but adapted to Revival Druid symbols and philosophy.Chris Angel is pretty open about the fact that he is a showman using slight of hand and similar techniques, not a mage. He is one of the best in the business.Yours under the diverse oaks,Nathair /|\ Link to comment
Ron Beron Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Good question. Okay, how about voodoo. Real or not? How about someone like Chris Angel? Illusion or real? For example, he can take a card, let you write on it, slap the card on the bald head of a man and the card is gone. Next he takes a knife and cuts open the man's scalp to reveal the card under the scalp and pulls the bloody card out from under the skin. Illusion or black magic?Voodoo is suggestive magic. It only has power, and psychological power at that, when used in suggestion. If the person is not aware of it it has no power. The ancient Greeks, et al used suggested or sympathetic magic to rid a person of illness. Chris Angel claims to be an illusionist in that he uses props and stunts to produce his "magic",As to magic, per se, it is simply the invocation of divine interference through the use of of artifact whether it is organic, i.e., a tool or non-organic, i.e., the word. The OT is replete with magic used by :::gulp::: prophets of God such as Joseph, Moses, Isaac, etc. Link to comment
BCSpace Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Sacred temple clothing (worn worthily) will protect you against physical harm (there is no doctrinal basis for this belief whatsoever)Yet the doctrine is that they are a protection as anyone who goes to a TR interview will hear. Exactly what kind of protection is not stated, but my opinion is that it's protection of the spiritual well-being of the person involved and perhaps also those who closely associate. This could indeed involve physical protection from time to time imho. But certainly such protection does not come from the fabric itself but by obedience to the law upon which the blessing is predicated. Link to comment
TAO Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The Book of Mormon has a power that can be felt just by looking at it or touching it. It can even protect you from bullets if you carry it in your pocket.Actually, I would say this isn't all too far from the truth... I'd call it somewhat true, if ya' know what I mean. To me, it has a power that can be felt from reading it... or by looking at it causing remembrance. The power isn't the paper that makes up the book, it's the glorious words inside, and the spirit that comes and rests upon you! =)As for protecting from bullets - as God wills it at that time. Link to comment
Joseph Antley Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 No, I don't really believe in "magic." Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 "Satanic" powers, no. Natural forces, yes. Or is it wrong to use electricity or gravity or...? I'm not as charitable as Brother Smith (or at least not as diplomatic), so...I begin to wonder why someone who claims to be LDS is so...fundamentalist. You do know that Joseph Smith and his family practiced folk magic back in the day, right? Yes, and before I was saved I had premarital sex and used alcohol, tobacco, and tea, I also struggled after converting with tobacco and the law of Chasity. Joseph Smith and several early saints leaders also used tobacco and alcohol after the word of wisdom was revealed. The point is failing to live perfectly does not mean evil is good. Magic is clearly defined as satanic in the scriptures, we are told to never use familiar spirits (mediums, tarot readers, ect), sorcery, or witchcraft, they are all declared as an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, in Deuteronomy. The fact that the Smiths used folk magic before there conversion does not make it righteous. I do not believe that there is any evidence showing they continued the practice after founding the Church, even if I am wrong, there continued practice after still doesn't make it right. It only means that they struggled giving up an evil thing they used to do, just like modern converts struggle with giving up alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, pornography, profane language, ectMagic is still the power of Satan, nothing changes that. Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So how do you tell the difference? They both would seem to be supernatural.The only way to tell the difference is though the Gift of Discernment, a spiritual gift than people can receive to be able to differentiate between good and evil spirits or powers. Also another clue is if they person has the Priesthood, if they have the priesthood it is safe to assume (though not guaranteed since men can be corrupted) that they are using the power of God. If they don't have the priesthood it is safe to assume (though once again not guaranteed) that they are using magic.In the end there is not clear and simple test to tell miracle from magic, the only thing besides having the gift of discernment is to test there fruits against the scriptures. Those who produce good fruits are righteous, those who produce bad fruits are evil, this approach though takes a life time of study to figure out though, even Satan will heal the sick if he knows it will cause the righteous to fall away from God. Link to comment
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Or is it wrong to use electricity or gravity or...? Physics is not magic, unless we have stepped back to the dark ages. Link to comment
phaedrus ut Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 There are important parts of LDS belief that include inanimate objects having magic powers or able to bestow powers. Some examples include the glowing Jaredite stones, the Liahona, the Urim and Thummim/Nephite Interpreters, Joseph's Seer Stone, & Oliver's rod of nature. It seems fundamental, at the very least, that someone should have a testimony of using magic rocks as translating devices. Phaedrus Link to comment
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