# of humans w/ access to the one true gospel

[tana]

In a recent thread an assertion was made by foxtrot I believe that approx *only* 2% of humans ever born have had access to *the one true gospel*

A CFR was made but I don't see that it was ever answered?

Here would be my feeble attempt (minimal knowledge of ancient world history) at coming up with a number:

Number of humans who have been exposed to the gospel from:

Adam through Noah, 1000 years--- 2,000,000

Noah through Abraham, 1000 years--- 2,000,000

Abraham through Moses, 500 years--- 1,000,000

Moses through Jesus, 1500 years--- 3,000,000

Jesus through Joseph Smith, 1800 years--- 3,000,000

Joseph Smith through present, 180 years-- +15,000,000

= 26,000,000

Total number of humans who have ever lived---- 100 billion 100,000,000,000

I'm coming up with--- .026%

Of course this is my *spin* with an agenda of suggesting

that the system doeesn't appear logical or reasonable.

Would someone else like to give it a spin?

Curt

[TAO]

tana, are you considering the humans before Adam and Eve in that giant number of total humans of yours? You probably should only count the humans since Adam and Eve. Also, with the internet today, technichally everyone with an internet source has an access to the gospel... LDS.org w00t! But I'm not sure how many actually know of it.

[tana]

Yep, on that Google Wiki chart it shows 20 million alive and walkin around at 4000 BC. It also points out that the whole thing is only accurate to within 10 billion people or so.

I do need to get the concept and wording right as to *access* to the gospel. How about, # of people *baptized* into the one true church?

[TAO]

I do need to get the concept and wording right as to *access* to the gospel. How about, # of people *baptized* into the one true church?

Nah, access would mean knowledge of, I think... so if they know of the church, they would qualify as access to the gospel, I think.

[nicolasconnault]

In a recent thread an assertion was made by foxtrot I believe that approx *only* 2% of humans ever born have had access to *the one true gospel*

Joseph Smith through present, 180 years-- +15,000,000

Having access to the Gospel means having been taught the message of the LDS Church. My estimate is that the number of people who have had an opportunity to be baptised in the LDS Church since the time of Joseph Smith is probably more around the 200 million. You can get an idea by looking at the total number of missionaries in any given year, then looking at the rate of baptism per lesson taught per companionship, then finally looking at the total convert baptisms in that year. My estimate is extremely rough, but it certainly is far above 15 million.

[tana]

Nah, access would mean knowledge of, I think... so if they know of the church, they would qualify as access to the gospel, I think.

Ok, how bout # of people exposed to enough knowledge of the gospel to be held accountable by god for not doing enough with it?

[TAO]

Ok, how bout # of people exposed to enough knowledge of the gospel to be held accountable by god for not doing enough with it?

That would be good. I think you might need to align it with the Adam-and-Eve were first two humans on the earth thing (must start as 2 humans on the earth...?) though. Do two separate ones, just to check.

Also note that in the time between death and our resurrection, many will be given the chance to have the gospel (but I am not sure all will accept it).

[tana]

Having access to the Gospel means having been taught the message of the LDS Church. My estimate is that the number of people who have had an opportunity to be baptised in the LDS Church since the time of Joseph Smith is probably more around the 200 million. You can get an idea by looking at the total number of missionaries in any given year, then looking at the rate of baptism per lesson taught per companionship, then finally looking at the total convert baptisms in that year. My estimate is extremely rough, but it certainly is far above 15 million.

.25% of 90 000 000 000 = 225 000 000

[tana]

That would be good. I think you might need to align it with the Adam-and-Eve were first two humans on the earth thing (must start as 2 humans on the earth...?) though. Do two separate ones, just to check.

Also note that in the time between death and our resurrection, many will be given the chance to have the gospel (but I am not sure all will accept it).

The point I'm trying to make is that if this is the primary testing grounds it seems odd that the VAST majority of souls do not have any exposure to the the aparatus.

[Sky]

Don

[TAO]

The point I'm trying to make is that if this is the primary testing grounds it seems odd that the VAST majority of souls do not have any exposure to the the aparatus.

As Sky said, I don't know if this is the primary testing grounds, that I don't. I do wish I could be more help, but I do not know =/.

[jadams_4242]

In a recent thread an assertion was made by foxtrot I believe that approx *only* 2% of humans ever born have had access to *the one true gospel*

A CFR was made but I don't see that it was ever answered?

Here would be my feeble attempt (minimal knowledge of ancient world history) at coming up with a number:

Number of humans who have been exposed to the gospel from:

Adam through Noah, 1000 years--- 2,000,000

Noah through Abraham, 1000 years--- 2,000,000

Abraham through Moses, 500 years--- 1,000,000

Moses through Jesus, 1500 years--- 3,000,000

Jesus through Joseph Smith, 1800 years--- 3,000,000

Joseph Smith through present, 180 years-- +15,000,000

= 26,000,000

Total number of humans who have ever lived---- 100 billion 100,000,000,000

I'm coming up with--- .026%

Of course this is my *spin* with an agenda of suggesting

that the system doeesn't appear logical or reasonable.

Would someone else like to give it a spin?

Curt

whatever the number is its gonna take 1000 years of temple work to get em all covered!

[44Foxtrot]

In a recent thread an assertion was made by foxtrot I believe that approx *only* 2% of humans ever born have had access to *the one true gospel*

Curt

Curt,

Sorry if I missed your CFR. Open ocean sailors are a group of individuals for whom I hold a great deal of respect and would never intentionally ignore.

Anyway, I am not sure where you got the number that you attribute to me. The order of magnitude number I normally quote is 0.02% (which is not far from your 0.026%).

If one considers the US only, then a rough number would be an order of magnitude larger; perhaps around 1.6% - 2%, depending on how one counts the inactive and lapsed members.

I also note that for those who do hear (or have heard) the Gospel, the vast majority (sooner or later) reject it. The fact that so many who have been born or converted into the Gospel eventually reject it after living it for years or decades should tell us something.

My RM sons tell me that in the foreign countries in which they served the two year retention rate for converts is less than 20% and dropping. The cash cost to me and my family per convert for the missions of my three sons averaged between $6,000 and $7,200 per convert. Given that the missionaries work in pairs, the the total cash cost to missionary parents for these converts would be roughy twice that amount.

In some of the countries and areas in which my sons labored, that turns out to be several total annual family incomes, if not the total annual income of entire small communities.

Is this the best use of member finances in helping others in the world, many of whom at times lack basic necessities?

[nicolasconnault]

My RM sons tell me that in the foreign countries in which they served the two year retention rate for converts is less than 20% and dropping. The cash cost to me and my family per convert for the missions of my three sons averaged between $6,000 and $7,200 per convert. Given that the missionaries work in pairs, the the total cash cost to missionary parents for these converts would be roughy twice that amount.

In some of the countries and areas in which my sons labored, that turns out to be several total annual family incomes, if not the total annual income of entire small communities.

Is this the best use of member finances in helping others in the world, many of whom at times lack basic necessities?

Interesting figures. Indeed, much can be said for improving the success rates of missionaries, but I believe many important steps have been taken in that direction, and the work is far more effective today than it has ever been. With missionary work about to go ahead in China, we really don't know what will happen, but I have heard (on the grapevine) that the GAs are preparing for something monumental there, even though I expect that it will take more than full-time missionaries to create the ideal conditions for cultural and spiritual conversions there.

[thesometimesaint]

Don't worry about it. Everyone who has ever lived on this planet will have a full opportunity to hear, and accept or reject the Gospel before their Resurrection. It really doesn't matter if it is in this life or the next as long as we do our part.

[CV75]

The point I'm trying to make is that if this is the primary testing grounds it seems odd that the VAST majority of souls do not have any exposure to the the aparatus.

There are many, many testing grounds within this primary one of mortality on planet Earth (I refer to Paul's "bounds and habitations" and the uniqueness of each individual life). All souls have exposure to the apparatus in some form or fashion by virtue of stepping into mortality, even if it is a few moments of innocent life, a long life with the Light of Christ, a short life in the covenants, or any other combination. The apparatus is the Atonement, which applies to all; everything else is an appendage to that.

[tana]

Interesting figures. Indeed, much can be said for improving the success rates of missionaries, but I believe many important steps have been taken in that direction, and the work is far more effective today than it has ever been. With missionary work about to go ahead in China, we really don't know what will happen, but I have heard (on the grapevine) that the GAs are preparing for something monumental there, even though I expect that it will take more than full-time missionaries to create the ideal conditions for cultural and spiritual conversions there.

Have you heard of, or do you have any theory as to why the god of Abraham has seemingly never taken his msg. to the Asians?

[tana]

There are many, many testing grounds within this primary one of mortality on planet Earth (I refer to Paul's "bounds and habitations" and the uniqueness of each individual life). All souls have exposure to the apparatus in some form or fashion by virtue of stepping into mortality, even if it is a few moments of innocent life, a long life with the Light of Christ, a short life in the covenants, or any other combination. The apparatus is the Atonement, which applies to all; everything else is an appendage to that.

I hope everybody can at least see why it appears confusing to me and others. God lays out a program whereby he can test the worth of souls. He writes down the rules in a handbook, but only gives the handbook to less than 1% of the souls. He is prepared for this tho as he has a system in place whereby the 1% does all the ordinances for the 99% whether they need it or not.

He allows these souls to hear the gospel in what amounts to a form of reincarnation....as we on here seem to agree that the spirit world is indisguishable from this world in form and substance, culture, social settings....He obviously gives the playbook to everyone in this incarnation but doesn't allow them to perform their own ordinances

To me it is confusing.

[thesometimesaint]

tana39:

Have you ever made bread? What percentage of salt does it take?

Ps In LDS Theology God doesn't hold the individual responsible for not hearing the Gospel.

[Jason]

Well, 100% of us had access in the pre-existence, and 100% of us will have access either in this life or in the Spirit World. So I don't really see a problem.

[CV75]

He writes down the rules in a handbook, but only gives the handbook to less than 1% of the souls.

It is understandable that the idea can be confusing, but only to those who have the handbook and haven't read it, don't understand it, or don't agree with it. For those without the handbook, confusion on this point is a non-issue. They will respond to the handbook once they have it, and will of course exercise their option for confusion accordingly!

[CV75]

He is prepared for this tho as he has a system in place whereby the 1% does all the ordinances for the 99% whether they need it or not.

There is something to be learned in this principle ("For as in [one man] Adam all die, even so in [one man] Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15: 22)." Three things that quickly come to mind are equality, love and selfless service.

[CV75]

He obviously gives the playbook to everyone in this incarnation but doesn't allow them to perform their own ordinances.

Everyone gets something different out of their own conditions for testing that permits them to become as God. The idea is that they receive their own ordinances, whether by themselves or by proxy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have to say that 100% of humans will have had the chance to hear the gospel by the time of the judgment, accourding to LDS theology.

Of course if we limit the count to just this life the number is very small.

What are the reasons for this? Several.

[tana]

Well, 100% of us had access in the pre-existence, and 100% of us will have access either in this life or in the Spirit World. So I don't really see a problem.

How do you know *you* are not in the post existence right now? Perhaps someone is being baptized for your previous persona as we speak.