New York?

[SkepticTheist]

Sounds like a great thing to use against the Heartlanders then.

I can't find anything on Meldrum's site or by his supporters (admittedly having looked through all the sites). The only references I can find to Columbus as a placeholder in a timeline (ie. "before Columbus").

[Calm]

Sounds like a great thing to use against the Heartlanders then.

Would be better to know how he deals with it imo.

My only issue with "Heartlanders" is those who use the theories to draw lines of who is faithful, spiritually worthy, or when someone cries 'dibs' on the prophecies and promises of the BoM.

[SkepticTheist]

Would be better to know how he deals with it imo.

My only issue with "Heartlanders" is those who use the theories to draw lines of who is faithful, spiritually worthy, or when someone cries 'dibs' on the prophecies and promises of the BoM.

Fair enough.

[mapman]

I did some quick research and found this article with some useful information. It quotes from Charles Lowell Walker's journal, a talk that Patriarch William McBride gave. From the article:

Another reference happened when William McBride, patriarch from the Richfield Utah Stake, spoke at a prayer meeting in St. George in January 1881. After recalling many experiences from the Nauvoo period and quoting the Prophet Joseph Smith on many issues, Patriarch McBride referred to "the Route the old Nephites took travelling to Cumorah from the south and south west; of having to bury their tr[e]asures as they journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah; of Moroni dedicating the Temple site of what we now call St. George, Nauvoo, Jackson Co., Kirtland, and others we know not of as yet."

This map, which is obviously related to the other one I posted, contains this note on the back:

"A chart, and description of Moroni

[LDS Guy 1986]

If Joseph Smith dug up the plates in New York, does that mean Moroni burried them in New York?

Yes, Moroni buried the plates near Palmyra New York around 421 AD.

Does that mean the final battle between the Nephites and Lehites took place in New York?

No, some argue that the Hill Cumorah in New York, is the same Cumorah where the Jaridites and Nephites fought there last battles. Most BoM scholars do not accept this anymore as true. I do know at some time (and still to this day by some people) it was popularly accepted this way, I myself believed this for many years. The BoM records though cannot fit into the Great Lakes region though at the time that the record is recorded, it does fit the time and descriptions of central America though hence most theories on BoM geography point to central america not Great Lakes.

If so, how could the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon be the right geography?

It couldn't be, this is why most scholars support the idea the Cumorah is in Central America, this is supported by the fact that the Hill in NY was never referenced as Cumorah until well after the BoM translation.

Wouldn't a final battle in New York necessitate a North American (or hemispheric) geography?

Yes, it most definitely would, but no battle ever happened in New York. The battle took place at a Hill called Cumorah in central America around 385 AD, after this battle Moroni was one of a handful of Nephites left alive. Moroni fled and traveled for almost 36 years before he arrived in New York in around 421 AD. He buried the Golden Plates that contain the abridged record of the Nephites which we call the Book of Mormon by the direction of God in a hill in New York to be found about 1400 years later when the Angel Moroni directed Jospeh Smith to the spot on the Hill Cumorah in NY where they were buried.

[Calm]

Yes, it most definitely would, but no battle ever happened in New York. The battle took place at a Hill called Cumorah in central America around 385 AD

Just to be clear, im, this last is the opinion of LDSguy and not a restatement of official church doctrine.

[Mortal Man]

From scholarship coming from both the Maxwell Institute, it is clear that the Heartlander Geography isn't plausible. Or in other words, anyone that is serious about archaeology knows that the LAND SOUTHWARD HAS TO BE IN MESOAMERICA. I have issues with people lumping the New York Cumorah and the Hopewell Archaeology in the same bucket as the Heartlander theory. Because it is a different proposition altogether to use that stuff as a proposed setting for an extended land northward, something that a reasonable reading of the Book of Mormon provides for, as well as a reasonable understanding of the archaeology of the Hopewell. This proposition for a Cumorah in New York and a Land of Zarahemla in Mesoamerica is NOT a Hemispherical Geography. It is a Limited Geography with an extended geography northward later in the history of either the Jaredites and the Nephites. So it is a modification on a Limited Geography, and is not hemispherical. It is what I call the Two Heartland theory, one heartland in Mesoamerica, and one in the Land Northward later in the history of the BOM.

Don't forget Chili.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Just to be clear, im, this last is the opinion of LDSguy and not a restatement of official church doctrine.

That is because the Church has no position of BoM geography or anything that has to do with Cumorah. They are not there to settle scholarly discussions but to preach the restored gospel to the world, there is not spiritual value to the discussion so they do not get involved.

[SkepticTheist]

Don't forget Chili.

What?

[SkepticTheist]

Looking at the explanations in the journals about these maps, it seems pretty clear what they actually imply:

"the Route the old Nephites took travelling to Cumorah from the south and south west; of having to bury their tr[e]asures as they journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah;"

This seems pretty clear that they were talking about the NY hill Cumorah as the burial place of all the records (i.e. Moroni 6:6).

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/18-moroni-last-nephite-prophets

How in the world did you guys conclude that this was saying the last battles were in Mesoamerica according to these maps?

Ed Goble

[Mortal Man]

What?

Lehi et al. "landed on the continent of south America in Chili thirty degrees south lattitude", so any serious geography theory must begin there.

[SkepticTheist]

Looking at the explanations in the journals about these maps, it seems pretty clear what they actually imply:

"the Route the old Nephites took travelling to Cumorah from the south and south west; of having to bury their tr[e]asures as they journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah;"

This seems pretty clear that they were talking about the NY hill Cumorah as the burial place of all the records (i.e. Moroni 6:6).

http://rsc.byu.edu/a...ephite-prophets

How in the world did you guys conclude that this was saying the last battles were in Mesoamerica according to these maps?

Ed Goble

Oh wait, I answered my own question, because the Maps say "Moroni's travels". It seems your interpretation in this thing contradicts the sense of what the Journal here is saying. This is referring to Moroni's travels with the rest of the "Old Nephites" northward from Mesoamerica to New York before the last battles there at Cumorah. You are reading into this thing what the context here in this journal does not allow.

Ed Goble.

[SkepticTheist]

Lehi et al. "landed on the continent of south America in Chili thirty degrees south lattitude", so any serious geography theory must begin there.

Uh. No it doesn't. That has nothing to do with anything about Cumorah or Mesoamerica. That is a separate Geographical claim belonging to the Hemispherical geography that is entirely based on a defunct claim that people thought that Joseph Smith stated that Lehi landed in Chile. The statement is discredited. And furthermore, nobody that confines themselves to the Book of Mormon text even takes those type of things into consideration for methodological geography.

[mapman]

Lehi et al. "landed on the continent of south America in Chili thirty degrees south lattitude", so any serious geography theory must begin there.

Any serious geography would first consider from whom the statement originated from and why they thought Lehi landed in Chile. For those who wish to look in more depth at the matter than Mortal Man, can start here.

[Mortal Man]

For those who wish to look in more depth at the matter than Mortal Man, can start here.

And for those who wish to look in more depth at the matter than mapman, can note that I linked to Williams' article in my previous OP.

[mapman]

And for those who wish to look in more depth at the matter than mapman, can note that I linked to Williams' article in my previous OP.

My bad.

My point wasn't that you were unaware of the article, but rather that one needs to analyze the statement rather than just asserting that "Lehi et al. 'landed on the continent of south America in Chili thirty degrees south lattitude', so any serious geography theory must begin there." Any serious geography does not need to start there but in the text of the Book of Mormon.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

If Joseph Smith dug up the plates in New York, does that mean Moroni burried them in New York?

Yes...does not mean final battle was there...as he was hunted by the Lam's for years.

[Obiwan]

If Joseph Smith dug up the plates in New York, does that mean Moroni burried them in New York?

Quite likely.

Does that mean the final battle between the Nephites and Lehites took place in New York?

No, not necessarily. Moroni wandered for at least 36 years before depositing the plates.

Further, there is no record at all of "where" Moroni deposited the plates. It is simply a mistaken legend within mormonism that he deposited the plates in a hill called Cumorah, simply because that's what it was later named by Joseph Smith.

If so, how could the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon be the right geography?

Because it actually fits.

Further, even Joseph Smith believed BOM events took place in Meso-America, thus this is not a new idea.

Wouldn't a final battle in New York necessitate a North American (or hemispheric) geography?

There is no evidence at all that any Book of Mormon related battle took place in New York.

[LDSGuy]

Did Joseph ever call the hill by the name Cumurah, or was it a name given to it by members. Obviously, two places can have the same name. I'm pretty sure that the hill in New York is not the same Cumurah in Central America. Moroni, after all, roamed for 40 years in the wilderness before he buried the plates.

[zerinus]

According to the BoM and treasure lore, treasures are "slippery" and have the ability to move underground.

The word slippery in that context does not mean what you think it does. Here are some online definitions of

[zerinus]

Yes, it most definitely would, but no battle ever happened in New York. The battle took place at a Hill called Cumorah in central America around 385 AD, after this battle Moroni was one of a handful of Nephites left alive. Moroni fled and traveled for almost 36 years before he arrived in New York in around 421 AD. He buried the Golden Plates that contain the abridged record of the Nephites which we call the Book of Mormon by the direction of God in a hill in New York to be found about 1400 years later when the Angel Moroni directed Jospeh Smith to the spot on the Hill Cumorah in NY where they were buried.

Ultimately the only reliable source of information we have about the Book of Mormon geography is the Book of Mormon itself; and according to my reading of it, the LGT is not such a cut and dried case. It may be applicable (indeed inevitable) in the early stages of the history of Nephites development; but the later stages of their history seems to tell a different story, as suggested in the following verses:

Alma 63

:

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

8 And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not.

9 And it came to pass that in this year there were many people who went forth into the land northward. And thus ended the thirty and eighth year.

10 And it came to pass in the thirty and ninth year of the reign of the judges, Shiblon died also, and Corianton had gone forth to the land northward in a ship, to carry forth provisions unto the people who had gone forth into that land.

These suggest long distances. Here is another relevant passage:

Helaman 3

:

3 And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were

an exceedingly great many

who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.

4 And they

did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers

.

5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.

Again suggesting long distances. Also these:

Helaman 11

:

20 And thus it did come to pass that the people of Nephi began to prosper again in the land, and began to build up their waste places, and began to multiply and spread, even until they did cover the whole face of the land, both on the northward and on the southward, from the sea west to the sea east.

3 Nephi 7

:

12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a kingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

13 And so speedy was their march that it could not be impeded until they had gone forth out of the reach of the people. And thus ended the thirtieth year; and thus were the affairs of the people of Nephi.

We really have no way of knowing how far they went, and where they built settlements, without further revelation.

[zerinus]

"sticking to the text methodologically"?

There is something in the text itself that is rather plain and clear.

1 Ne. 13:12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Now, as I understand it, it is a general consensus that this verse is referring to Columbus coming to America.

Now from here (and other sources) we learn that on his fourth voyage Columbus visited the same Mesoamerican location that is currently believed by many as the setting for the Book of Mormon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus

How is this explained away by the those that reject a Mesoamerican setting?

The Doctrine and Covenants identifies the North American Indians as "Lamanites," and even as "Jews":

D&C 3

:

20 And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.

D&C 10

:

48 Yea, and this was their faith

[Questing Beast]

(Wow, third thread on "two Cumorah's", how strange our curiosity is...)

"Great (exceeding) distances" cannot exceed known limitations repeatedly "visited" in the BofM. When king Mosiah sends Ammon and his fellow explorers to find the land of Nephi it takes them 40 days, with much wandering about because they didn't know precisely where it was. The return journey took Alma's people 12 days. Earlier, king Limhi's explorers went north through the narrow neck of land, past Zarahemla (which they were looking for), but not so far past it that they knew they had gone too far: at which point they came across the remains of the Jaredites. In other words, "Ramah/Cumorah" was not far north of Zarahemla. It is inconceivable that the Limhite explorers could travel thousands of miles out of their way and wind up in upper NY! And then, gathering up various artifacts (junk) to lug back thousands of miles to the land of Lehi-Nephi (missing Zarahemla yet again as they went back through the narrow neck of land). "Exceeding distance" cannot be applied to this close geographical corridor either side of Zarahemla. At most - given the flocks, herds, children, women and baggage - "Lehi-Nephi" was 200 miles south of Zarahemla; and there's no way to believe that the Limhite explorers traveled much further than that when they missed Zarahemla and wound up north of there....

[Mike Reed]

None of these passages have anything to do with treasures

[zerinus]

I disagree.

"[T]he inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again" (Mormon 1:18).

That was part of the "slipperiness". The "slipperiness" itself simply meant that they began to lose their wealth in various ways, and could no longer retain them.