Heavenly Mother, doctrine or not?

[todd520]

I'm a new convert and am confused on this topic.

My understanding is this belief is a shared logical supposition but not revelation. As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed: "Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven"

In this light, I find the logic sound and comforting. However, that is very different than claiming it is revelation.

[Jason]

No canonized revelation mentions her, but that doesn't mean it's not doctrine.

[NauvooSaint]

LDS Proclamation on the Family mentions 'heavenly parents'. I don't accept the existence of a Heavenly Mother as I don't find support for it in the scriptures.

[David T]

It is a logical assumption many make based on popular understanding of the plan of Salvation, Eternal Marriage, King Follet Discourse, and later expounding by LDS leaders. It is currently taught explicitly, but delicately ('Heavenly Parents' is often used, 'Heavenly Mother' almost never.).

I do not think the concept of necessity follows what has been revealed, but I do know that it brings comfort and logic to many.

[thesometimesaint]

I have no problem with a Heavenly Mother, but would like to see more revelation on her before I would say it is doctrine.

[David T]

...before I would say it is doctrine.

Cue BCSpace...

[thesometimesaint]

[SkepticTheist]

I'm a new convert and am confused on this topic.

My understanding is this belief is a shared logical supposition but not revelation. As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed: "Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven"

In this light, I find the logic sound and comforting. However, that is very different than claiming it is revelation.

Sometimes I wonder why people get tied up so much with whether the Church accepts something as doctrine or not. To me, one should formulate one's own beliefs and come up with one's own personal theology, and one should make sure one can answer well each temple recommend interview question.

While I'm not a NOM or a Middle-way-er myself, and am TBM through and through, I do have a very complex personal faith. But I think there is room in the Church for such persons, because I think that the temple recommend questions provide for a lowest-common-denominator of what can be considered a faithful person. And though I wouldn't go so far as John Dehlin has suggested in how to answer temple recommend questions, I believe that there is quite a bit of slack in what can how to truthfully answer those questions. For example, I know of no question on Book of Mormon historicity in the temple recommend questions (note: I do believe in historicity by the way).

To me, people should worry about coming to a knowledge of the truth on their own through the Holy Ghost without waiting for the Church to come out and tell them. So I am into the Church for my own eternal progression towards godhood (hopefully), and I don't know why it should matter. I think Denver Snuffer makes good points about our own communication with the Lord and looking forward to a personal tutoring by the Savior in his books.

So on those terms, I don't know why it should matter whether the Church has a doctrine or revelation on the Heavenly Mother. The Holy Ghost to me says its true.

Ed Goble

[todd520]

Ed, while I respect and appreciate your thoughts as an individual

Your approach cannot be applied at the Church level, or for apologectis.

The church should be clear in what they are saying and not saying.

[thesometimesaint]

todd520:

I don't know as the Church should enter the often Byzantine world of Apologetics. Further I believe we don't have a doctrine on Mother in Heaven, but allow every member to form their own opinion. To me it just isn't a make or break idea.

[todd520]

Hi TSTS,

I don't feel a missionary church can avoid the world of apologetics.

saying we have an inferred or logical belief on the topic is perfectly acceptable to me

same with urging people to pray on the subject. for their personal guidance

What i find challenging is any desire not to be clear on the source of the belief, very bad for apologetics or mission work.

[Vex]

I'm reminded of a letter that was posted here a little while ago. It appeared to be a written letter from the prophet at the time (do not recall who), which in effect stated "Yes! But do not teach it."

I unfortunately cannot recall which thread it appeared in.

[Vex]

Hi TSTS,

I don't feel a missionary church can avoid the world of apologetics.

saying we have an inferred or logical belief on the topic is perfectly acceptable to me

same with urging people to pray on the subject. for their personal guidance

What i find challenging is any desire not to be clear on the source of the belief, very bad for apologetics or mission work.

For the source, I believe one must look to the ancient Hebrew. Unless I'm much mistaken (as I am prone to be) the word for God implicitly dictates both genders in a plural sense. Similar to English usage of Parents (or if you're familiar with Spanish vernacular; hijos--literally translated means sons, but can infer both male and female). Or a more appropriate example would be padre, which translates as father, while padres translates to parents, inferring both male and female connotations.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I'm a new convert and am confused on this topic.

My understanding is this belief is a shared logical supposition but not revelation. As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed: "Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven"

In this light, I find the logic sound and comforting. However, that is very different than claiming it is revelation.

If you accept The Family: A Proclamation to the World as scripture, (it was presented by the Prophet and unanimously agreed upon by the General Authorities so it does fit the definition of scripture as I have been taught) then it does mention that we are the offspring of "heavenly parents". So right there you got a clear cut case for Heavenly Mother's existence. As far as those who claim that the Scriptures do not have any reference at all to a heavenly mother I would say they are incorrect. It says in Gen 1:26 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

How does God create women unless he had a wife to model her after just like he modeled man after his image?

This scripture does not explicitly say there is a Heavenly Mother, Eve's body wad not made in Heavenly Father's image, which supports the idea that there is a Heavenly Mother as well.

I don't know if the Church Leadership has an official position on the existence of a Heavenly Mother, I know that the missionary lessons I took in 2004 mentioned a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother if I recall correctly.

[frankenstein]

No canonized revelation mentions her, but that doesn't mean it's not doctrine.

logic and reason would use a plural form rather than a singular form.

The house of Israel has 4 mothers.

-------------------------------------------

as for doctrine or not

type "mother in heaver" with the quotations in lds.org search engine.

from President Kimball 1978:

He loves you. He and your mother in heaven value you beyond any measure.

[thesometimesaint]

double post

[thesometimesaint]

todd520:

I don't know as the Church is avoiding it per say, it just allows individual members to do it for them, as long as we don't get too far along in false doctrine. I'm fine with it. But to me the Church's job is to proclaim the Gospel simply, clearly, and with the intent of enlisting all those who will take the message to heart.

Apologetics, specifically if we have a Mother in Heaven, to me while interesting is an appendage of an appendage, of an appendage. With Apologetics mixed in it would quickly devolve into whether we are polytheists or not.

[LeSellers]

My understanding is [that our Mother in Heaven] is a shared logical supposition but not revelation. As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed: "Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven"

In this light, I find the logic sound and comforting. However, that is very different than claiming it is revelation.

I can find only one revelation that intimates that She exists as our Mother in Heaven. In Doc&Cov 137, we read that our sisters, daughters of our glorious mother Eve, are exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, which means they are Goddesses, and have offspring of their own.

That is not all the official evidence we have, though. In the Hymn, "O, My Father", we sing

"I had learned to call thee Father,

Thru thy Spirit from on high,

But, until the key of knowledge

Was restored, I knew not why.

In the heav'ns are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason; truth eternal

Tells me I've a mother there.

"When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

In your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I've completed

All you sent me forth to do,

With your mutual approbation

Let me come and dwell with you."

Hymns, # 292

The Hymns are doctrine. Whenever I see the words to "How Great Thou Art" and the two asterisks, and recall that President M^cKay asked the word "know" be changed to "do" in the Children's Hymn "I am a Child of God", I know that the hymns and songs of Zion are powerful teaching tools to instruct us in true doctrine. Hymns carries the signatures of the First Presidency, which is "just another indicator".

We also have The Family: A Proclamation to the World, which counts as doctrine (signed by all fifteen Apostles). It tells us that we are the children of Heavenly Parents (plural), which is another powerful indication of Her existence.

Yes, we have Mother in Heaven and I am most grateful to Her for all She's done for us, even though we do not have much information on Her role in the Eternities.

As to whether it is "revelation", I believe it is, but it is not canonized revelation.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Hi Lehi:

While Hymns may contain doctrine. I don't see them as a source of doctrine. So I can, and do agree with the overall sentiments of the Hymn without it being doctrine.

[Olavarria]

Truth

[todd520]

If you accept The Family: A Proclamation to the World as scripture, (it was presented by the Prophet and unanimously agreed upon by the General Authorities so it does fit the definition of scripture as I have been taught) then it does mention that we are the offspring of "heavenly parents". So right there you got a clear cut case for Heavenly Mother's existence. As far as those who claim that the Scriptures do not have any reference at all to a heavenly mother I would say they are incorrect. It says in Gen 1:26 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

LDS Guy,

I accept the Family Proclamation for what it was intended, as a clear statement on LDS beliefs about families here on earth.

We find it rude when anti-mormons pull quotes out of context or try inferr a major piece of doctrine from a turn of phrase.

In that vein, claiming LDS have a doctrine on Holy Mother because the Proclomation used parents (plural) is doing what we criticize in others.

How does God create women unless he had a wife to model her after just like he modeled man after his image?

This scripture does not explicitly say there is a Heavenly Mother, Eve's body wad not made in Heavenly Father's image, which supports the idea that there is a Heavenly Mother as well.

These are sound logical arguments for adopting the belief. Again, I'm not against the belief if we are clear on the purpose, so that we can envision a loving and caring Heavenly Father in our minds.

[frankenstein]

I can find only one revelation that intimates that She exists as our Mother in Heaven. ...

Yes, we have Mother in Heaven and I am most grateful to Her for all She's done for us, even though we do not have much information on Her role in the Eternities.

As to whether it is "revelation", I believe it is, but it is not canonized revelation.

Lehi

type "mother in heaver" with the quotations in lds.org search engine.

from President Kimball 1978:

He loves you. He and your mother in heaven value you beyond any measure.

[Questing Beast]

I have never heard a "firm teaching" on Mom in Heaven in any Church curriculum or from the pulpit by GAs; but I have heard individuals share their belief in that concept.

Incidentally, when I sing "O My Father", I change the word to: "Father, Mother may I GREET you in your royal courts on high". We are not going to MEET them, according to the premise of Mormon heaven and our having originated there in the preexistence. It will be a greeting, not a meeting, Just a quibble, I know....

[Questing Beast]

@frank: I guess I wasn't listening!...

[cion]

LDS Proclamation on the Family mentions 'heavenly parents'. I don't accept the existence of a Heavenly Mother as I don't find support for it in the scriptures.

Just because it says "Parents" doesn't mean there is a Heavenly Mother.