Of earrings and obeying the prophet

[Jeff K.]

Nathair,

I'm sure you understand that I don't regard the Book of Moses as historically authentic. But even conceding that this is what LDS scriptures teach, the fact remains that Abraham came comparatively early in the history of divine revelation and redemption. The Law of Moses was still future, as was the coming of Jesus Christ and the New Testament. So Abraham, as he trudged his way to the mountain to offer Isaac on an altar, did not have the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight as to the significance of his test in the larger scope of redemptive and revelatory history.

Comparatively early does not equal comparatively ignorant. That is a fallacious position. Again, a ton of assumptions without evidence. Your argument is silly.

[Rob Bowman]

Jeff,

Is it your claim that Abraham knew that God would stop the killing of Isaac and that the "sacrifice" of Isaac would foreshadow the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? if so, on what do you base this claim? If not, then my basic point, far from being "silly," has been conceded.

Comparatively early does not equal comparatively ignorant. That is a fallacious position. Again, a ton of assumptions without evidence. Your argument is silly.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

To me Abraham's sacrifice was that he was willing to sacrifice his son. If Abraham knew in advance that God would stop him it would have been no sacrifice. He was did obey.

[LeSellers]

on what do you base [the assumed claim that Abraham knew that God would stop the killing of Isaac and that the "sacrifice" of Isaac would foreshadow the sacrifice of Jesus Christ]?

How about this:

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Lehi

[Mark Beesley]

So Abraham, as he trudged his way to the mountain to offer Isaac on an altar, did not have the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight as to the significance of his test in the larger scope of redemptive and revelatory history.

Is hindsight better than foresight?

Do you believe Abraham was a prophet?

If so, do you believe Abraham had the capacity to be blessed with foresight?

If so, do you believe everything Abraham knew has been recorded in the Bible we have today?

As Abraham, with his son Isaac, was preparing the altar for sacrifice, his son inquired as to where the ram was for the sacrifice. Abraham replied, the Lord will provide. That may very well be an indication that Abraham had some foresight that is not entirely clear to us.

[cinepro]

Rob Bowman:

To me Abraham's sacrifice was that he was willing to sacrifice his son. If Abraham knew in advance that God would stop him it would have been no sacrifice. He was did obey.

Perhaps it's my lack of faith showing, but I've never felt that being willing to kill your child because you think God told you to is a positive character attribute.

[Vance]

Is it your claim that Abraham knew that God would stop the killing of Isaac . . .

Irrelevant. Abraham was obeying God.

. . . and that the "sacrifice" of Isaac would foreshadow the sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Abraham knew the gospel.

if so, on what do you base this claim?

New Testament scripture. (And also Restoration scripture.)

If not, then my basic point, far from being "silly," has been conceded.

[LeSellers]

Perhaps it's my lack of faith showing,...

I'd agree: it is showing.

but I've never felt that being willing to kill your child because you think God told you to is a positive character attribute.

The critical word is "think", as opposed to "know". Abraham was certain, and that made all the difference.

Lehi

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

Is it your claim that Abraham knew that God would stop the killing of Isaac and that the "sacrifice" of Isaac would foreshadow the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? if so, on what do you base this claim? If not, then my basic point, far from being "silly," has been conceded.

Jeff K., on 11 February 2011 - 08:37 AM, said:

Comparatively early does not equal comparatively ignorant. That is a fallacious position. Again, a ton of assumptions without evidence. Your argument is silly

.

It is my claim that you cannot claim one way or the other, as you are stating, that somehow Abraham was more ignorant. It is a ridiculous statement made in ignorance. For all we know, Abraham may have been much more aware than you or eye (hindsight not withstanding) as to what the gospel was about.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I too am glad that Abraham's challenge isn't mine. Lest I fall far shorter than Abraham did. I have more than enough of my own challenges. But I believe his example is instructive in how we should respond to God. To do whatsoever the Lord our God has commanded us.

[Vance]

I too am glad that Abraham's challenge isn't mine.

Hear hear!

Lest I fall far shorter than Abraham did.

You are shorter than Abraham? How do you know?

But I believe his example is instructive in how we should respond to God. To do whatsoever the Lord our God has commanded us.

[Rob Bowman]

Jeff,

I'm not interested in trying to continue reasoned discussion with someone whose every response is to dismiss what I say as silly or ridiculous.

It is my claim that you cannot claim one way or the other, as you are stating, that somehow Abraham was more ignorant. It is a ridiculous statement made in ignorance. For all we know, Abraham may have been much more aware than you or eye (hindsight not withstanding) as to what the gospel was about.

[Jeff K.]

I only dismiss what you say as silly and ridiculous when you say silly and ridiculous things. And stating you "know" what scriptures Abraham did not have or to the extent that because there was less history there was obviously less doctrinal knowledge through revelation is about as silly as it gets. You cannot know. And it would be silly to presume so because it is presentism in its most illogical state.

[PacMan]

I'm not going to go and read through a thread that's much ado about nothing. There's something about following a prophet, regardless of whether he is speaking prophetically, particularly if it is something of nominal worth, i.e. an extra set of earrings. Call me crazy, but I'd just assume follow some good advice from the Lord's anointed. Worst case scenario, is you look more respectable.

PacMan

[cinepro]

I'd agree: it is showing.

The critical word is "think", as opposed to "know". Abraham was certain, and that made all the difference.

Lehi

Ultimately, most people don't do terrible things in the name of God unless they are pretty darn sure. After all, no one needs to be "certain" in order to do nice, good things.

So I'm not certain individual certainty is the best benchmark on which to base judgment.

[LeSellers]

Ultimately, most people don't do terrible things in the name of God unless they are pretty darn sure. After all, no one needs to be "certain" in order to do nice, good things.

So I'm not certain individual certainty is the best benchmark on which to base judgment.

Of course, Abraham was not "most people", he was the he friend of God, and God spoke to him face-to-face. He didn't hear voices in his head, he heard voices from the Person standing in front of him.

His certainty was more than what you are implying.

Lehi

[cinepro]

Of course, Abraham was not "most people", he was the he friend of God, and God spoke to him face-to-face. He didn't hear voices in his head, he heard voices from the Person standing in front of him.

His certainty was more than what you are implying.

Lehi

Even if an angel-looking being appeared to me, passed the handshake test, told me He was God/Jesus, and then told me to kill my son, I still wouldn't do it.

Such is my lack of faith.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Even if an angel-looking being appeared to me, passed the handshake test, told me He was God/Jesus, and then told me to kill my son, I still wouldn't do it.

Such is my lack of faith.

This is why you were not preordained to be the patriarch of the covenant people of God, Abraham had total faith in God which is why he was foreordained to be the head of Israel!

Also remember that Abraham was almost offered up as a sacrifice to the "gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and also a god like unto that of Pharaoh, king of Egypt." (Abraham 1:13), so he knows what it is like to be tied upon an alter and when he was told by God to sacrifice Isaac these old scars must have been reopened.

He probably associated human sacrifice with idols and false Gods, so he probably struggled with this the whole 3 days he traveled! His torment and anguish must of been unbearable, to think he had to offer up his son, just like his father tried to do with him. On top of that he is dealing with the fact that Isaac is his promised Son who would give him a great nation of people!