Religious Beliefs and Freedom of Association

[Hestia]

Stay away from Prop 8 and keep discussion general and don't veer into politics.

[Stargazer]

Jaybear wrote about profiting from sin, and it got me to thinking -- or at least what in me passes for thought.

Just after coming home from my mission, before I found a regular job, I was employed briefly at one of the new temporary worker companies, and my first day assignment involved unloading about a million (it seemed to me at the time) cases of various hard liquors, brandy, vodka, whisky, etc, from a boxcar. I felt quite peculiar doing this, but minimum wage was minimum wage, so I did it. To this day I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt. Aside from the fact that drinking alcohol is not sinful, per se, I am not sure why I should have felt any guilt at it.

I'm trying to think of how a normal person could profit from sin in his daily life, if his activities are perfectly legal. I wouldn't work at a casino, because I don't agree with casinos, but again, gambling per se is not sinful. It might be sinful for a man to gamble away his family's food money, but what if he is very responsible and never does anything like that, but still plays blackjack on occasion? Not a single commandment exists against it -- and the Church counsels us against it, but the question of gambling does not come up in the temple recommend interview. I could do it if I had to, work in a casino, though I would prefer not to.

The only legal activity that I think would be genuinely profiting from sin, would be if one lived in Nevada, or wherever brothels were legal, and either invested in one, or worked at one, even not as a sex-worker. I think it's pretty clear that that would be profiting from sin. But what if you owned a business that manufactured beds, and an order arrived from a legal brothel in Nevada for twenty beds? It seems that it would be pretty clear that filling the order would count as profiting from sin. But wouldn't it also count as profiting from sin if you owned a furniture store and a couple came in to buy a bed, and in the course of the conversation happened to mention that they weren't married and the bed was for them? Would selling them a bed consistute profiting from sin? What if a married couple came in to buy and bed and happened to mention that the bed was a gift for their daughter and her boyfriend, who might or might get married someday? Would that be profiting from sin?

What about charging people a quarter for every time they took the Lord's name in vain? I guess that would be profiting from sin, too.

This is nuts.

[Libs]

Jaybear wrote about profiting from sin, and it got me to thinking -- or at least what in me passes for thought.

Just after coming home from my mission, before I found a regular job, I was employed briefly at one of the new temporary worker companies, and my first day assignment involved unloading about a million (it seemed to me at the time) cases of various hard liquors, brandy, vodka, whisky, etc, from a boxcar. I felt quite peculiar doing this, but minimum wage was minimum wage, so I did it. To this day I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt. Aside from the fact that drinking alcohol is not sinful, per se, I am not sure why I should have felt any guilt at it.

I'm trying to think of how a normal person could profit from sin in his daily life, if his activities are perfectly legal. I wouldn't work at a casino, because I don't agree with casinos, but again, gambling per se is not sinful. It might be sinful for a man to gamble away his family's food money, but what if he is very responsible and never does anything like that, but still plays blackjack on occasion? Not a single commandment exists against it -- and the Church counsels us against it, but the question of gambling does not come up in the temple recommend interview. I could do it if I had to, work in a casino, though I would prefer not to.

The only legal activity that I think would be genuinely profiting from sin, would be if one lived in Nevada, or wherever brothels were legal, and either invested in one, or worked at one, even not as a sex-worker. I think it's pretty clear that that would be profiting from sin. But what if you owned a business that manufactured beds, and an order arrived from a legal brothel in Nevada for twenty beds? It seems that it would be pretty clear that filling the order would count as profiting from sin. But wouldn't it also count as profiting from sin if you owned a furniture store and a couple came in to buy a bed, and in the course of the conversation happened to mention that they weren't married and the bed was for them? Would selling them a bed consistute profiting from sin? What if a married couple came in to buy and bed and happened to mention that the bed was a gift for their daughter and her boyfriend, who might or might get married someday? Would that be profiting from sin?

What about charging people a quarter for every time they took the Lord's name in vain? I guess that would be profiting from sin, too.

This is nuts.

It is kind of nuts. We have likely all profited from sin, at some point, either knowingly or unknowingly. I'm not sure how it would even be possible NOT to profit from sin, in some way or another, because the human race is sinful, all of us, and there is no way we're going to be completely clear of supporting each others' "sins", in some way or another.

I do think more "direct" support of sin is much worse (and a sin of which one might need to repent) than what most of us inadvertently participate in. Something like selling illegal drugs, or making porn flicks, running a brothel or something like that, I would label as "supporting sin" (in a serious way).

It is a rather complicated subject, though.

[Libs]

Would ownership of a bar or a casino be considered a sin? I mean would that affect someone's worthiness for the Temple, even if the owner didn't drink or gamble?

[LeSellers]

I mean would [ownership of a bar or a casino] affect someone's worthiness for the Temple, even if the owner didn't drink or gamble?

It didn't affect Joseph's worthiness to go to the Temple when he owned a bar. And, since the Church herself owned a bar, or, at least she owned a five-star hotel that served alcoholic drinks in several restaurants, in Salt Lake City until Aug 1987, one is left to conclude that a private Saint would not be amiss in owning one, either.

Lehi

[Libs]

It didn't affect Joseph's worthiness to go to the Temple when he owned a bar. And, since the Church herself owned a bar, or, at least she owned a five-star hotel that served alcoholic drinks in several restaurants, in Salt Lake City until Aug 1987, one is left to conclude that a private Saint would not be amiss in owning one, either.

Lehi

Thanks. I didn't know about the hotel owned by the church in SLC. I do recall that Joseph had a bar in the boarding house for awhile, but the story goes that Emma made him remove it.

[LeSellers]

I didn't know about the hotel owned by the church in SLC.

It was the Hotel Utah. Opened in 1911, it was specifically designed to host travelers from all over the world, just as the Nauvoo House was.

I do recall that Joseph had a bar in the boarding house for awhile, but the story goes that Emma made him remove it.

He did, but only to a location across the street. O. P. Rockwell needed a source of income and Joseph opened the Barbershop for that purpose. This is ironic for another reason: Porter never cut his hair until Joseph's remarried sister-in-law, Agnes Coolbrith Smith Pickett (widow of Don Carlos Smith), needed a wig. It was after this haircut that Porter became an alcoholic. He believed (and the evidence supports him) that if he let his hair grow, no one could kill him. (Joseph Smith was supposed to have told him, "I prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that you

[selek]

Thanks. I didn't know about the hotel owned by the church in SLC. I do recall that Joseph had a bar in the boarding house for awhile, but the story goes that Emma made him remove it.

It's also interesting to note that "the Church" looked the other way as Salt Lake City operated licensed brothels only blocks from Temple Square.

I used to do security downtown, and had a chance to examine some of the historical landmarks and placards in the area- they're part of the "recommended" tour.

One of the most notorious brothels and "upscale" whorehouses stand at about 2nd South and 2nd East- right where the Salt Lake Trib's offices and distrubution center now stands.

One of the "houses" was taken over by a law firm, IIRC.....proof that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[frankenstein]

It didn't affect Joseph's worthiness to go to the Temple when he owned a bar. And, since the Church herself owned a bar, or, at least she owned a five-star hotel that served alcoholic drinks in several restaurants, in Salt Lake City until Aug 1987, one is left to conclude that a private Saint would not be amiss in owning one, either.

Lehi

Your comment caused me to think of the Parable of the Talents.

We do not know, HOW, the 5 increased to 10 or the 2 increased, we only that gaining the increase was rewarded. Though, I still do not fully understand contract farming for beer companies.

Though, we do know "The Church is opposed to gambling in all forms", so I would guess that for a LDS person gambling would not be "Temple Worthy" profession.

[Libs]

It's also interesting to note that "the Church" looked the other way as Salt Lake City operated licensed brothels only blocks from Temple Square.

I used to do security downtown, and had a chance to examine some of the historical landmarks and placards in the area- they're part of the "recommended" tour.

One of the most notorious brothels and "upscale" whorehouses stand at about 2nd South and 2nd East- right where the Salt Lake Trib's offices and distrubution center now stands.

One of the "houses" was taken over by a law firm, IIRC.....proof that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Ha! Funny!

SLC has a much more interesting history than I ever realized!

[Libs]

It was the Hotel Utah. Opened in 1911, it was specifically designed to host travelers from all over the world, just as the Nauvoo House was.

He did, but only to a location across the street. O. P. Rockwell needed a source of income and Joseph opened the Barbershop for that purpose. This is ironic for another reason: Porter never cut his hair until Joseph's remarried sister-in-law, Agnes Coolbrith Smith Pickett (widow of Don Carlos Smith), needed a wig. It was after this haircut that Porter became an alcoholic. He believed (and the evidence supports him) that if he let his hair grow, no one could kill him. (Joseph Smith was supposed to have told him, "I prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that you