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The Stick of Joseph


Mortal Man

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As a note of interest one might also compare the following text:

View to the Hebrews

"[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land."

BofM, Ether 2:5

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where never man had been........"

I'm sure it is an insignificant coincidence.

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As a note of interest one might also compare the following text:

View to the Hebrews

"[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land."

BofM, Ether 2:5

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where never man had been........"

I'm sure it is an insignificant coincidence.

Along with the hundreds of other insignificant coincidences; e.g.,

VotH p. 175']In resemblance of the Urim and Thummim, the American Archimagus wears a breast plate made of a white conch-shell with two holes bored in the middle of it, through which he puts the ends of an otter skin strap, and fastens a buck horn white button to the outside of each, as if in imitation of the precious stones of the Urim.
VotH p. 151']Look at the origin of those degraded natives of your continent, and fly to their relief. -- Send them the heralds of salvation. Send them the word, the bread of life. You received that book from the seed of Abraham. Restore it to them, and thus double your own rich inheritance in its blessings. Learn them to read the book of grace. Learn them its history and their own. Teach them the story of their ancestors; the economy of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
VotH p. 138']How is it possible to doubt that a part of the Mexican nation had arrived at a certain degree of cultivation, when we reflect on the care with which their hieroglyphical books were composed, and kept...?
VotH p. 140']Whence could have been derived the knowledge of the accurate hieroglyphical paintings, which this most learned author exhibits as found among some of the Indians; unless they had learned them from people to whom the knowledge of hieroglyphics had been transmitted from Egypt, its original source?
VotH p. 142']the gospel had in very remote times, been already preached in America.
VotH p. 172-173']Mr. Merrick observed that the colour of these parchments was dark yellow. Doctor Thomas, of Worcester, showed me, among his Antiquarian curiosities, an Arabic parchment manuscript, which he informed was written long before the Christian era. This was dark yellow; but the parchment and writing were in good preservation. And one of these written parchments might thus long have been preserved as well as the other. This view of the subject may give an intelligible view of the account of the old Indian in Stockbridge to Dr. West, that his fathers had buried, not long ago, a book which they could not read. And it may give a striking view of the vigilant care of the Watchman of Israel, who never slumbers, in relation to laying in train this singular item of evidence among many others, which should combine to bring to light that outcast people, who were to be exhibited to the world in the last days.
VotH p. 148']About forty rods from this round fort, was another tumulus, "more than ninety feet in height," says the writer in the Archaeology; which was placed on an artificial hill. It appears to have been a burying place; and probably was a high place for worship. Immense numbers of human bones, of all sizes, were here found. Here were found also with those bones, stone axes and knives, and various ornaments. Not far from this tumulus was a semi-circular ditch. The informer remarks it was six feet deep when he first discovered it. At the bottom lay "a great quantity of human bones." These are supposed to be the remains of men slain in some great battle. They were all of the size of men, and lay in confusion, as though buried in a pile, and in haste. Here might have been about the last of those more civilized people who inhabited that station; thus entombed in a ditch by a small residue of their brethren spared; or by their savage enemies, if all in the fortress were cut off.

Speaking of battles and bones, see Mosiah 21:26-27; Omni 1:22; Mosiah 8:8; Mormon 6:15 & Ether 11:6.

"...remarkable from the fact that [View of the Hebrews] produces such strong evidences in favor of the genuineness of the Book of Mormon. ... [the author] in more than one place, refers to a tradition among the various tribes that in former times they possessed a book of great value, which they had lost, but which would at some time be restored to them. ... This is exactly the story, from the Lamanites standpoint, which the Book of Mormon records." -- Elder George Reynolds of the Seventy (1902).

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Guess what, Joseph also plagiarized from Leaves of Grass! I can't believe that apologists would ignore all of these "insignificant coincidences":

Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (Alma 37:37)
Sleep--I and they keep guard all night,

Not doubt, not decease shall dare to lay finger upon you,

I have embraced you, and henceforth possess you to myself,

And when you rise in the morning you will find what I tell you is so.

See an embarrassingly large amount of further examples here!

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Along with the hundreds of other insignificant coincidences; e.g.,

The sad thing is that I find all of these words in a dictionary. How JS could plagiarize from the dictionary, of all places, is appalling.

MM, as smart as you are, I am amazed that you seriously look at this as compelling.

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B. H. Roberts found it compelling. Although, I don't recall him mentioning the "Chili" connection.

Did he, now? Let's say he did find it compelling. So what.

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B. H. Roberts found it compelling.

No. He did not.

He found the VoTH parallels to offer a possible future line of attack; they didn't convince him, but he foresaw how they might be used.

He may not have foreseen how his own attempt to prepare in advance to defend against that attack would be misrepresented by the terminally unscrupulous, though.

Regards,

Pahoran

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Here's a few I see.

Matches.jpg

The similarities are admittedly tenuous but Pratt and Williams had different handwriting.

MM.... I could say those characters are more similar to Cursive English than what you are comparing them to.

Many languages share characters that don't necessarily mean the same thing. Characters are more universal than meanings, usually.

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So, I suppose that F. G. WIlliams , also, plagiarized Adam Smith in "Wealth of Nations" wherein he writes:

Or Ethan Smith plagiarized Adam Smith. Follow the Smiths, I always say. :P

Frankly, I am shocked at the number of authors who are guilty of copying each other.

Yes, it's a terrible problem. As the dread pirate B. H. Roberts says, "Do not take the idea too seriously, however, it is merely a passing suggestion of a bare possibility." (Studies... p. 187)

I'm curious, how many people here have read both VotH and Robert's studies? Raise your hand; don't be shy.

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Do you have a solid date for when "The Skeptic's dream" was written and published?

Was it writting in 2009? Are we talking about the Spaulding/Rigdon theroy?

That does indeed, seems to be some skeptic's dream.

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I guess this is proof that David Moore plagiarized the Book of Mormon. Who would have thought?

Indeed. I have had numerous go-rounds with anti-Mormons about the "plagiarism" canard. Frequently the parallels they use to argue for "plagiarism" are matched by equal -- or better -- parallels from later works that could not possibly be serious candidates for plagiarism. In such cases they glibly dismiss them as being too late; an example of "intellectual honesty" in action, no doubt. They seem not to realise that if such parallels can exist between works where "plagiarism" is just not an option, then they cannot be used as evidence of "plagiarism" at all.

Regards,

Pahoran

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I believe that the sticks of Joseph and Ephraim are not mentioned in the BOM. The connection is a post BOM development found in DC 27:5 (Aug 1830). So, this would indicate that the View of the Hebrews was not a source for the BOM, or, given your theory, one would expect it to appear in the BOM, instead of a few months after the publication of the BOM.

I also believe the Urim and Thummum connection wasn't made until some time after the BOM was translated, which kind of undermines the idea that "View of the Hebrews" was the source for that idea.

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Ethan Smith:

Let us look at the natives in an extreme part of South America, and see if they exhibit any evidence similar to what has been adduced of the natives of North America.

Don Alonzo de Ericilla, in his history of Chili, says of the natives there; "The religious system of the Araucanians is simple. They acknowledge a Supreme Being, the author of all things, whom they call Pillan, a word derived from Pulli, or Pilli, the soul; and signifies the Supreme Essence... He goes on to speak of his having subordinate invisible beings under him, to whom he commits the administration of affairs of less importance. These, this author sees fit to call "subaltern divinities." We may believe they are a traditional notion of angels, good and bad; such as is held by the Indians of North America.

...

He also says; "They have among them a tradition of a great deluge, in which only a few persons were saved, who took refuge on a high mountain called Thegtheg, which possessed the property of moving on the water."

Here then it seems the remote natives of Chili (a region 1260 miles south of Peru, in South America,) furnish their quota of evidence that they originated in the same family with the North American Indians, and hold some of their essential traditions.

...

This author says of those native Chilians, "Many suppose that they are indigenous to the country; while others suppose theyderive their origin from a foreign stock, and at one time say, that their ancestors came from the north, and at another time from the west."

Their better informed or wise men, it seems retain some impressions of their original emigration from a foreign land, and from the north-west, of Beering's Straits. It is possible to give a satisfactory account of such traditions among those native Indians of Chili, short of their having received from them from the Hebrew sacred Scriptures? And if from thence, surely they must be Hebrew. -- View of the Hebrews p. 158-159 (1825)

As a note of interest one might also compare the following text:

View to the Hebrews

"[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land."

BofM, Ether 2:5

"And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where never man had been........"

I'm sure it is an insignificant coincidence.

The problem with "coincidences" is that they can come back and bite you when they don't go your way. A double-edged sword as it were.

For example, the Atacama Desert is located in Chile, and numerous mummies have been found there due to the very dry conditions. Analysis of the mummies shows the presence of HTLV-1 virus -- of a type found otherwise only in southern Japan (Kyushu). A little further north along the coast, at Valdivia, Peru, is found pottery with the distinctive designs found only in southern Japan (Kyushu). Archeologist Betty Meggars of the Smithsonian has long maintained that there had to have been a boat or boats from Japan which brought such characteristics thousands of years ago. Hundreds of such "coincidences" have called into serious question the notion that everybody in the Americas came across Beringia.

The upshot is that the native Chilean tradition may be correct and supported by hard evidence.

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