Uncle Dale Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Therefore I did obey the voice of the spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword...Since at that time Father Lehi was the living prophet, should Nephi have obtained his permission, before killing his relative, Laban?Where else in Latter Day history has a member been authorized directly by God to assassinate, without an OK from the Prophet?As for myself, I'm certain I'd disobey such a command from God.You also?UD Link to comment
Gohan Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Since at that time Father Lehi was the living prophet, should Nephi have obtained his permission, before killing his relative, Laban?Where else in Latter Day history has a member been authorized directly by God to assassinate, without an OK from the Prophet?As for myself, I'm certain I'd disobey such a command from God.You also?UDDon't think the Prophet's permission would've been necessary for Nephi to do that, Law of Moses was in full force still, and I think Laban probably qualified for death under it, judging by his actions, but I'm no OT scholar.No instances of that today, well, from no sources that I'd consider reputable at least.I think that reaction would be pretty natural, I'd probably have trouble obeying it, and it seems like Nephi did too. Link to comment
Tribunal Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Since at that time Father Lehi was the living prophet, should Nephi have obtained his permission, before killing his relative, Laban?His relative? Link to comment
Gohan Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 His relative?They were both descendants of Joseph, possibly both though Manassah, so yeah. Don't know how closely related though. Link to comment
jadams_4242 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Don't think the Prophet's permission would've been necessary for Nephi to do that, Law of Moses was in full force still, and I think Laban probably qualified for death under it, judging by his actions, but I'm no OT scholar.No instances of that today, well, from no sources that I'd consider reputable at least.I think that reaction would be pretty natural, I'd probably have trouble obeying it, and it seems like Nephi did too.Nephi was only being charitable {as to the lords commandments} to save laban from suffering a terrible hangover! Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 ...no sources that I'd consider reputable at least....Am I wrong in recalling hearing that some of the men who followed John D. Lee in 1857 believed that they were doing God's will?I can't find a source for that item, so I'm not sure.UD Link to comment
Gohan Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Am I wrong in recalling hearing that some of the men who followed John D. Lee in 1857 believed that they were doing God's will?I can't find a source for that item, so I'm not sure.UDI was thinking of a random story I heard at a member's house on the mission, but I've heard the same as to some of Lee's men. No clue on the source though, MMM's never been a real focus of study for me. Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Nephi was not acting contrary to any established law, he was following the law of self-defense found within the Mosaic Law- so there was no need to seek special permission of his file leader. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Nephi was not acting contrary to any established law, he was following the law of self-defense found within the Mosaic Law- so there was no need to seek special permission of his file leader.Perhaps so -- but such drastic acts can spawn equally drastic consequences. Nephi worries that "the Jews" in power in Jerusalem will detect his actions.Therefore he practically threatens Zoram with death, unless that servant bends to Nephi's wishes.Now, there was nothing mentioned in the original commandment from God, about how to implement a cover-up or how to avoid the consequences of murder. So we do not read of a second commandment from God, telling Nephi to also murder Zoram.Had Zoram refused to accompany Nephi, then the implication is that Nephi would have murdered Zoram as well.A consultation with Lehi might have given Nephi some sort of blanket authority to conduct executions at will.Without that sort of far-reaching authority, the holy murderer risks having to pay for his crimes. He may not himself view such assassinations as criminal, but the laws of society would no doubt judge a person like Nephi guilty. What could he do to justify himself before the Jerusalem Sanhedrin -- plead that Laban was trying to kill him, and that he had every right to take the law into his own hands? I doubt that plea would have resulted in his being found not guilty of killing.So --- if I hear a voice in my mind, telling me to slice off the head of my second cousin, and steal his valuables, how do I know for certain that it is a Divine commandment? And --- what do I then do, to preserve myself from the consequences of my crime, if there is no second voice in my head, telling me to let my cousin's servant go free?Seems problematic to me. But, if the Living Prophet gave me free rein, to do as I saw fit, I might more easily conduct such assassinations and threats of murder.UD. Link to comment
katherine the great Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 I don't see Nephi's actions being justified by anything other than direct revelation. The Mosiac law had very specific procedures in place that required witnesses, elders, etc. And it couldn't be considered self defense because Laban was passed out drunk! Nephi was not in any immediate danger of bodily harm. I don't know of any exact scriptural parallel and believing LDS must either believe that God directly commanded Nephi to do this or Nephi blew it. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 I don't see Nephi's actions being justified by anything other than direct revelation. The Mosiac law had very specific procedures in place that required witnesses, elders, etc. And it couldn't be considered self defense because Laban was passed out drunk! Nephi was not in any immediate danger of bodily harm. I don't know of any exact scriptural parallel and believing LDS must either believe that God directly commanded Nephi to do this or Nephi blew it.If there was any justification, then it must have been in the "oral law," (which would not be formally codified for centuries to come).Laban had attempted to kill Nephi -- or, at least we are given that impression by the text. If Laban was continuing to try and kill Nephi, then it is possible that the "oral law" could have been interpreted to say that Nephi's assassination was justified.On the other hand, we are given the impression that Laban was on close terms with "the brethren" of "the church," whatever that might have been. Perhaps the precursor to the Sanhedrin. If Laban was indeed a high-ranking Israelite (I do not think the term "Jew" was yet used), then Nephi's recourse would have been to the King or perhaps the High Priest.His coercion of Zoram was less justifiable. Zoram had committed no offense against Nephi, and yet Nephi essentially threatens to murder the poor fellow. I can think of no provision under Israelite law that would have justified Nephi's treatment of Zoram.Many people claim to hear God's voice in their heads, telling them to do one thing or another. I would hope that modern LDS would consult with their priesthood leaders, before stretching their sons out upon an altar, to sacrifice them -- or to obey some similar mental command.UD Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 I don't see Nephi's actions being justified by anything other than direct revelation. The Mosiac law had very specific procedures in place that required witnesses, elders, etc. And it couldn't be considered self defense because Laban was passed out drunk! Nephi was not in any immediate danger of bodily harm. I don't know of any exact scriptural parallel and believing LDS must either believe that God directly commanded Nephi to do this or Nephi blew it.Laban being drunk was the provision that the Lord deliver the offender into your hands. I will obtain the pertinent information and scripture verses for you tomorrow. Link to comment
BookofMormonLuvr Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Nephi makes no indication that he would himself murder Zoram, but we do know of the murderous disposition of Laman and Lemuel. Surely, Nephi knew they wouldn't just let Zoram walk away. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 ...they wouldn't just let Zoram walk away.Or, as King Henry once said: "Will no one rid me of this troublesome fellow?"I would have less respect for Nephi, in his using such a weasel's method, than if he had simply put his blade to Zoram's throat.UD Link to comment
Neophyte Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Since at that time Father Lehi was the living prophet, should Nephi have obtained his permission, before killing his relative, Laban?Permission from which prophet?Wasn't Jeremiah a contemporary of Lehi?The Book of Mormon itself speaks of many prophets in 1 Nephi 1:4 "For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed." Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Permission from which prophet?Wasn't Jeremiah a contemporary of Lehi?The Book of Mormon itself speaks of many prophets...If I understand LDS doctrine correctly, only one man at a time hold the keys to a dispensation. Moses would have held the keys to the Fifth Dispensation, but on earth, after his passing, they would be administered by Joshua and his successors.If Lehi was not the successor to Moses, then he did not hold the keys, and a leader like Jeremiah, "First" Isaiah, or the High Priest in Jerusalem would have held the keys.At any rate, Nephi would not have been a law unto himself, deciding whether or not it was lawful that Zoram be killed, etc.Then again, I may be mis-understanding the Mormon doctrine of the Living Prophet, and who holds Divine authority in a dispensation.The religious group I come from gave up professing the keys and the dispensations when Teddy Roosevelt was still in knee-pants.UD. Link to comment
TAO Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 No, no permission needed from a prophet; permission needed from God. Nephi was extremely uncomfortable already with the situation, and so yah... this quote probably fits best...The wisdom of God oftimes appears as foolishness to men. But the single greatest lesson we can learn in mortality is that when Gos peaks and a man obeys, that man will always be right. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 No, no permission needed from a prophet; permission needed from God. Nephi was extremely uncomfortable already with the situation, and so yah... this quote probably fits best...Even so, I think we would all feel better today, had John D. Lee asked the First Presidency for permission, before he, Dame, Haight, Higby, etc. embarked upon the tragic events of Sept. 11, 1857.It doesn't hurt to check with higher authority, when you are about to take another man's life.UD Link to comment
TAO Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Even so, I think we would all feel better today, had John D. Lee asked the First Presidency for permission, before he, Dame, Haight, Higby, etc. embarked upon the tragic events of Sept. 11, 1857.I agree. But nevertheless, it isn't required.I would hope one would make sure one is being told by God. And I would also hope one would be like Nephi... a bit... hesitant.It doesn't hurt to check with higher authority, when you are about to take another man's life.UDAgreed. But sometimes this isn't possible I think (for example, with Nephi, he couldn't go back to Lehi, they wouldn't be drunk anymore). Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 ...Agreed. But sometimes this isn't possible I think (for example, with Nephi, he couldn't go back to Lehi, they wouldn't be drunk anymore).I suppose that God has the power to deliver an enemy into the hands of His servants more than once.Let's say that I heard a voice in my head, telling me to lop off the head of my neighbor. If I hesitated, and called up the local police (rabbi, lawyer, or psych ward) for some advice, I'm sure that God could get the guy killed eventually.Nephi seemed to think that he was the right man, in the right place, at the right time. I sincerely doubt that any of us are so indispensable as that.UD. Link to comment
TAO Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 I suppose that God has the power to deliver an enemy into the hands of His servants more than once.He does, but he also want his servants to listen to him, and not to rely on other people's faith all the time.One of his lessons to me was that obedience should be second nature. I shouldn't question his motives. I can question my own, but his; no. That's what I mean about Nephi being hesitant.Let's say that I heard a voice in my head, telling me to lop off the head of my neighbor.Oh no, the witness will not be a voice, the witness will be a sure voice. One you cannot contradict. One that doesn't act like a temptation.If I hesitated, and called up the local police (rabbi, lawyer, or psych ward) for some advice, I'm sure that God could get the guy killed eventually.He might, he might not, depends on his choice. But with great knowledge comes great responsibility, you will be faulted for it later.Nephi seemed to think that he was the right man, in the right place, at the right time. I sincerely doubt that any of us are so indispensable as that.Na, he was actually very questioning of his own intentions. But he said "I will go, I will do the things the Lord commands". He was a man of his word. When the Lord called, even in such a difficult position, he did what the Lord asked him. I suspect it bugged him in the back of his mind for the rest of his life, in the way worries do for everyone, but he stayed true, knowing what God had told him. Link to comment
Lightbearer Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Since at that time Father Lehi was the living prophet, should Nephi have obtained his permission, before killing his relative, Laban?Why should he? Not only would it be impractical (going back to his father was not an option) but also if he had a direct commandment from God, what need would he have for that? In fact Nephi was a prophet in his own right, before he and his brothers went to Laban, he had been blessed of the Lord:(1 Nephi 2:16-24) "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers. And I spake unto Sam, making known unto him the things which the Lord had manifested unto me by his Holy Spirit. And it came to pass that he believed in my words. But, behold, Laman and Lemuel would not hearken unto my words; and being grieved because of the hardness of their hearts I cried unto the Lord for them. And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart. And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands. And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And inasmuch as thou shalt keep my commandments, thou shalt be made a ruler and a teacher over thy brethren. For behold, in that day that they shall rebel against me, I will curse them even with a sore curse, and they shall have no power over thy seed except they shall rebel against me also. And if it so be that they rebel against me, they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance."So Nephi already knew what the voice of the Lord sounded like, and whatever the Lord commanded him, he knew his father Lehi would approve.Where else in Latter Day history has a member been authorized directly by God to assassinate, without an OK from the Prophet?Nowhere to my knowledge, and trying to link this to the MMM is quite shabby in my opinion.As for myself, I'm certain I'd disobey such a command from God.You also?UDI'll let you know if I ever receive such a command... however I think the purpose of this story being included was not so much the reason that we will ever have such a similar experience, but to teach us unwavering obedience to the Lord, just as Abraham's experience was an example to us as well. Also it showed us the importance of the scriptures and the importance of keeping the commandments of the Lord. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 ...trying to link this to the MMM is quite shabby in my opinion....Didn't Lee, Dame, Haight and Higby remain in their respective Church callings for many years, being viewed by all as men of God who had the Holy Spirit with them continually?If they could fool the General Authorities in Salt Lake City, into thinking that only Indians had carried out the murders, then I'd say that fact calls into question just how closely Jesus Christ administers His one true church, and rewards those who keep His commandments.But, granted, this is not the best analogy.Perhaps the Kirtland murders, perpetrated by the followers of Jeff Ludgren are a better analogy. In that case, the murderers were certain that God was directing their actions. I interviewed the sister of one of the cultists, a few years ago in Kansas City, and she related that some of the remaining Lundgren followers were still hearing "spirit voices," telling them what to do.Although I spoke of going to higher authority, for confirmation, before taking another man's life, in this case Elder Lungren WAS that higher authority.Generally speaking, a Reorganized LDS is only supposed to receive personal revelation for himself, and the family he heads. Such revelation would not entitle him to kill another person, even if he believed it came from God. The only exception I can envision would be if God told the head of the family to kill his own wife or children.Moving up from that level, we would have a branch president, patriarch, etc., who are authorized to obtain personal revelation affecting an entire congregation. Possibly they might receive a revelation to kill one of the branch members, but not an outsider.Even the President of the Church could only receive a revelation to kill a member -- not a non-member. That would be outside of his scope of authority.Elder Lundgren was acting as the head of his "remnant" church -- so he believed his revelations authorized him to kill members. Those members who received personal revelation (from Satan?) to conduct murder, still had to act under Lundgren's direction.UD. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 ...Nephi was a prophet in his own right...Yes, and even today all of The LDS Twelve are ordained to the office of prophet, seer, revelator and translator.But I do not think they have the authority to act over and above the man who holds the keys to the dispensation.I was taught in Sunday School that Lehi held those keys -- but, as I said elsewhere, we were also taught that the keys were merely symbolic. So, my logic would not hold up.Did Nephi have to receive permission for ANY of his activities? Or, was he co-equal to Lehi in his priesthood authority?UD Link to comment
MDalby Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 His relative?We know that Lehi was a descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Manasseh. 3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.(Alma 10:3)We know that Laban was also a descendant of Joseph but we don't know which tribe. possibly through Ephraim. 16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.(1 Nephi 5:16)That would be the extent that we know as far as they being relatives. Link to comment
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