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Rob Bowman

Gifts of the Holy Ghost

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As I understand it, LDS doctrine maintains that only members of the LDS Church receive and exercise the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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As I understand it, LDS doctrine maintains that only members of the LDS Church receive and exercise the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

...

You'll need to differentiate between "promptings of the Spirit"

and the "continual presence of the Spirit," as bestowed in the

LDS "baptism of fire."

I've heard Mormons dismiss "spiritual gifts" among the Reorganized LDS,

as being nothing more than these generalized, low-level "promptings."

Certainly an apostate Reorganized LDS baptism and confirmation could

not confer the "Holy Ghost," as is necessary for speaking in tongues,

interpretation of tongues, handling of serpents, drinking of poisons,

personal revelation, administration healings, etc.

With the Mormons, it all boils down to "authority." Without that

"dispensational keys" authority, the Holy Ghost is not going to

stick around long enough to grant the member any spiritual gifts.

...sigh....

UD

.

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The LDS view, as I understand it, may be summed up as follows:

    • One must be in the LDS Church to be baptized
    • One must be baptized before one receives the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood
    • One must receive the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
    • One must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Would this be an accurate statement of LDS doctrine?

With minor corrections...

  • One must be baptized by authority of the Aaronic Priesthood.
John the Baptist held the Authority in Christ's day, which is why Christ went to him. Today we believe that the Authority is only found within the LDS Church. However, whenever the true church was upon the Earth, there was someone who held the Authority.
Actually, Baptism is how you get membership in the LDS Church in most cases (unless you were born into the Church). As an excommunicated member of the LDS Church, I do not have a membership record (technically) so I am not a member.
  • One must be baptized before one receives the laying on of hands by a person holding the authority.
  • One must receive the laying on of hands by someone holding the Melchizedek priesthood to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Melchizedek held the Authority in Abraham's day. Today we believe that the Authority is only found within the LDS Church. However, whenever the true church was upon the Earth, there was someone who held the Authority.

  • One must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

I believe this is correct.

_____

This is a topic that is close to me right now. I have a Baptist mother in law, who loves to run around anointing people with scented oilve oil and then puts on a huge act as she "pulls" the devil or sickness or whatever out of the person she just anointed. She should really be on TV, she might be able to make a buck or two.

I have a Non-D Fundi Christian Sister-In-Law who believes that Christ smokes pot and looks like Bob Marley. She loves to rattle about in "tongues" and then translate her own words for people.

Neither are vey compelling to me as "gifts of the spirit" however, your mileage my vary.

(if anyone would care to try and convince me that my MIL and SIL are anything other than side-show Circus Freaks, I'd love for it to happen.)

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Rob,

I haven't thought on it much, but my initial take is that you are correct and that the enjoyment of the 'gifts of the Spirit' that you reference are akin to our doctrine about the capital G Gift of the Holy Ghost. One can enjoy the inspiration and presence of the Holy Ghost without being a baptized and confirmed member but one is not promised the continual guidance and presence of the Holy Ghost, which is another level of aid and comfort that the Lord promised (John 14:26). Likewise I believe that one can show a legitimate gift of the Spirit without being a baptized member, but there is no promise of continued use of that gift.

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As I understand it, LDS doctrine maintains that only members of the LDS Church receive and exercise the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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The LDS view, as I understand it, may be summed up as follows:

  • One must be in the LDS Church to be baptized
  • One must be baptized before one receives the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood
  • One must receive the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
  • One must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Would this be an accurate statement of LDS doctrine?

The first three seem correct.

The 4th I have never heard stated like that.

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I personally read D&C 46:11 to say that every person in the world is given at least one gift. I imagine that the fullness of that gift is exercised after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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I personally read D&C 46:11 to say that every person in the world is given at least one gift. I imagine that the fullness of that gift is exercised after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I suppose that it is easy to confuse personal talents with the

intervention of God's Spirit. No doubt there is a certain degree

of overlap, in that talented people can magnify their callings.

But the talent that might allow some member to compose heartfelt

hymns, or to teach children especially well, is not the same thing

as the gift of prophesy or the gift of spiritual healing.

I think that it is important to differentiate the accomplishments

of rare human talent from those acts which can only be ascribed to

God's direct intervention in the lives of His children.

UD

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I suppose that it is easy to confuse personal talents with the

intervention of God's Spirit. No doubt there is a certain degree

of overlap, in that talented people can magnify their callings.

I suppose you are right. I don't know what that has to do with my post however.
But the talent that might allow some member to compose heartfelt

hymns, or to teach children especially well, is not the same thing

as the gift of prophesy or the gift of spiritual healing.

I agree. I don't know what that has to do with my post however.
I think that it is important to differentiate the accomplishments

of rare human talent from those acts which can only be ascribed to

God's direct intervention in the lives of His children.

I agree. I don't know what that has to do with my post however.

In case I didn't make it clear, it is my belief that D&C 46:11 teaches that every person is given a gift of the Holy Ghost, be it the ability to believe in another's testimony, or be given a direct testimony of Christ, or prophecy, or tongues, and so forth. Whether we use those gifts, or enjoy them to their fullness, is another question.

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...

In case I didn't make it clear, it is my belief that D&C 46:11 teaches that every person is given a gift of the Holy Ghost, be it the ability to believe in another's testimony, or be given a direct testimony of Christ, or prophecy, or tongues, and so forth. Whether we use those gifts, or enjoy them to their fullness, is another question.

I would say that those things thus "given" are merged with human

abilities and talents. And that the presence of God's Spirit in

power is an occasional manifestation, not to be confused with a

member's unusual abilities.

Granting that persons other than Latter Day Saints can be the recipients

of such talents and also of the direct intervention of God's Spirit, what

are we to make of the fruits of such manifestations? What do they say about

God's active role in the lives of non-LDS, for example? And to what extent

might those fruits be shared across denominational lines? For example, might

a Mormon receive healing administration from a Methodist, or apostolic

counsel from a non-Mormon spiritual leader?

I rarely hear of such experiences -- although I suppose that now and then

they must occur. How often do we actually see people raising the dead, for

example? Or issuing predictive prophesy, effecting the lives of many

people coming to fruition, as in biblical stories?

I am not critiquing your ideas -- I'm attempting to explore them.

UD

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I personally read D&C 46:11 to say that every person in the world is given at least one gift. I imagine that the fullness of that gift is exercised after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After looking at it initially, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the spiritual gifts are limited to LDS members and that we expressly teach this. Notice that D&C 46:10 puts 46:11 into the context of the Church itself. So it's every man in the Church. 1 Cor 12:13 does the same thing. Now for the doctrine:

D&C 46:11

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Uncle Dale,

I would say that those things thus "given" are merged with human

abilities and talents. And that the presence of God's Spirit in

power is an occasional manifestation, not to be confused with a

member's unusual abilities.

You claim they are merged, but then you seem to want to keep them separate. That's a bit confusing.
Granting that persons other than Latter Day Saints can be the recipients

of such talents and also of the direct intervention of God's Spirit, what

are we to make of the fruits of such manifestations? What do they say about

God's active role in the lives of non-LDS, for example?

That God loves all His children? That He gives gifts according to what we are willing to receive?
And to what extent

might those fruits be shared across denominational lines? For example, might

a Mormon receive healing administration from a Methodist, or apostolic

counsel from a non-Mormon spiritual leader?

It seems to me that there are plenty of examples in the New Testament of those, such as in the early ministry of Apollos.
I rarely hear of such experiences -- although I suppose that now and then

they must occur. How often do we actually see people raising the dead, for

example? Or issuing predictive prophesy, effecting the lives of many

people coming to fruition, as in biblical stories?

I am not critiquing your ideas -- I'm attempting to explore them.

Feel free to explore away.

================

BCSpace,

After looking at it initially, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the spiritual gifts are limited to LDS members and that we expressly teach this. Notice that D&C 46:10 puts 46:11 into the context of the Church itself. So it's every man in the Church. 1 Cor 12:13 does the same thing.
That is definitely one way to read it. The only problem I have with that interpretation is that I am a personal witness to a gift of the Spirit being present in a person who was not a member of the Church. Namely, this dear lady was "given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world." When she bore her testimony, the Holy Ghost witnessed to me that her testimony was true. Even one of our apostles recently gave a talk about the gift of healing being present outside of the Church.
How would I explain Acts 2 and 10? The same as the difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Those are simply manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit and not the result of anyone's gift of the Spirit in particular.
I understand the difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost to be that one is a gift sealed upon us via the power of the priesthood while the other is a gift of grace that is not sealed by the priesthood. I don't see a similar distinction between manifestations of a gift of the Spirit and having a gift of the Spirit.

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Na, I have to say due to chapters in Moroni, that all people are given gifts, regardless of their denomination.

However, the gift of the holy ghost is only given through baptism by the proper authority.

Other gifts are given by Christ in the beginning, and can be used somewhat by people, but only to their full potential when they trust in Christ.

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I understand the difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost to be that one is a gift sealed upon us via the power of the priesthood while the other is a gift of grace that is not sealed by the priesthood. I don't see a similar distinction between manifestations of a gift of the Spirit and having a gift of the Spirit.

It would seem from the doctrine and scripture I posted that the gifts of the Spirit come by the priesthood only since joining the Church via authorized baptism is required. Not to take away from your personal example, but I have to place that in the category of a manifestation rather than an actual gift. Such manifestations can be powerful experiences, like during the day of Pentecost. They follow those that believe, and in that case, those that believed joined the Church. Could be tongues, healing, whatever, but they remain manifestations. They are gifts ala Cornelius and they certainly are spiritual, but they are not the spiritual gifts mentioned in the scriptures that are given to every man who is born of the spirit (joins the Church an receives the gift of the Holy Ghost).

I think such a difference is also alluded to in D&C 76 where believers in Christ inherit the Telestial but those who receive the testimony of Jesus (join the Church) can go on to inherit the Terrestial or Celestial.

I'm pretty comfortable with this because LDS doctrine on blessings, gifts, and endowments of any sort has always been conditional and esoteric. Those who don't meet the requirements, even if they believe or say they believe, are excluded from them.

Other gifts are given by Christ in the beginning, and can be used somewhat by people, but only to their full potential when they trust in Christ.

I could certainly go this route with all gifts. Perhaps manifest a little beforehand, but never fully realized as a gift until one joins the Church.

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  • One must be in the LDS Church to be baptized
  • One must be baptized before one receives the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood
  • One must receive the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
  • One must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Would this be an accurate statement of LDS doctrine?

Yes for all four. Odd that there would be any confusion about the fourth one, since it's just been reiterated to all Church members in the "Gifts of the Spirit Lesson" that is being taught this month in the Priesthood and Relief Society classes the world over:

Following baptism, each of us had hands laid on our heads to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we are faithful, we can have His influence continually with us. Through Him, each of us can be blessed with certain spiritual powers called gifts of the Spirit. These gifts are given to those who are faithful to Christ.

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This is a topic that is close to me right now. I have a Baptist mother in law, who loves to run around anointing people with scented oilve oil and then puts on a huge act as she "pulls" the devil or sickness or whatever out of the person she just anointed. She should really be on TV, she might be able to make a buck or two.

I have a Non-D Fundi Christian Sister-In-Law who believes that Christ smokes pot and looks like Bob Marley. She loves to rattle about in "tongues" and then translate her own words for people.

Neither are vey compelling to me as "gifts of the spirit" however, your mileage my vary.

(if anyone would care to try and convince me that my MIL and SIL are anything other than side-show Circus Freaks, I'd love for it to happen.)

Elf,

One man's side show freak is another man's saint.

My FIL, MIL, 2 of 3 BILS an aunt, uncle and associated cousins, along with my wife. Go about talking about how an angel led this guy to find some gold plates in a hole. Which he translated from an unknown language. Though he translated it by looking into a special rock, or his hat, or some combination thereof, rather than actually looking at the plates to translate from.

What he translated was about unknown people and the only substantive record of their existence is this work he translated. Then an angel packed off with the plates when he was done. All this was done to apparently "fix" Christianity. Which, by the way, they tell me has been broken for quite a long time.

Though they have never anointed me with oil, they have tried to lay hands on me on occasion, as well as laying hands on other people in order to heal them by the power of God.

They tell me that it would be best if I would come to agreement with them now on the matter.. get baptized and so forth into their religion. If I don't, I will miss out on lots stuff like my wife won't be eternally my wife, nor my family eternally my family. However, they say that if I don't come to agreement now, then perhaps I will change my mind after I am dead. But since a dead man can't get baptized and so forth, one of them would likely do me the courtesy of doing it for me.

Regardless, they seem to believe, because they consider me a decent fellow, that if I don't ever come to agreement with them, that at the end of the day, (in the afterlife) God will likely put in a place that would be better than anything I could have imagined, but terrible enough of a place that they are thankful not to have to go there themselves.

I certainly wouldn't assign them the caste of "side show freak", a carney or something like that. But I certainly would say that as far as the religious go, your MIL and SIL seem quite "run of the mill" in comparison.

Regards,

Mudcat

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As I understand it, LDS doctrine maintains that only members of the LDS Church receive and exercise the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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Another false reading by Rob. Nothing in that Gospel Principles statement precludes non-LDS from experiencing the gifts of the Spirit. In fact in the previous paragraph it says "These gifts are given to those who are faithful to Christ." Just another Strawman from Rob.

Another false conclusion based on a false premise.

Another false conclusion based on a false premise.

What part of "These gifts are given to those who are faithful to Christ."

Oh wait, is Rob saying that only LDS can be "faithful to Christ"?

until one actually lives it and experiances it personally; yes it is impossible to accept that someone else has much stronger guidance than yourself. :P

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I know that I am personally a beneficiary of a Spiritual Gift that I had long before I was baptized a member of the Church. Since then, however, it has substantially grown in strength. FWIW.

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Rob Bowman.... I would refer you to Mark/Luke 9 in which Christ makes clear that Gifts of the Spirit are NOT ONLY for those with authority as the Apostles in those chapters believed. However, they were correct that their authority DOES bestoe "gifts" of the spirit that are not available to others. Christ simply corrected their application and assumptions. I'm sure you've read my words on this before, but those words of Christ are exactly why being anti-mormon is being against God himself. Anti-mormons "offend us" because of their lies and misrepresentations, and Christ had harsh words for such. We may not be "with you", but we are not against you, and are only FOR Christ. Thus, you serve the devil by your actions.

In other words, again you need to stop misrepresenting LDS theology by only taking "part" of it and making a negative claim.

Uncle Dale actually had an interesting way of saying it by terming it "high" and "low" spiritual gifts.

Thus, there would be a difference between those gifts by those with God's actual authority and those gifts by those who simply believe, or maniftest such gifts. Bottom line.... ALL have access to gifts of the spirit, no matter the "organized" faith or the lack thereof, Faith period is what is required. But, there is a difference between those with the authority to lead by the spirit, and those who do miracles by the spirit. ALL are in the service of God when a man seeks Him, but only "some" are called BY Him to serve Him. In other words, it is direction of flow. One who has not authority goes to Him and He gives accordingly. One who has authority God gives whether he is called or not, per his purposes.

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The LDS view, as I understand it, may be summed up as follows:

One must be in the LDS Church to be baptized

No. Baptism is what makes someone a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ, aka the "LDS Church". You don't have to be in the Church to be baptized.
One must be baptized before one receives the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood.

... to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost that is given after baptism, Yes.

A man holding the priesthood of God can lay hands on anyone's head to give them a blessing, though.

One must receive the laying on of hands by an LDS member holding the priesthood to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Yes, as far as I know, if you're referring to the particular gift that is given after baptism into the Lord's true Church.

One must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

No. Gifts of the Holy Ghost are gifts from God, personally, and although men have to do certain things to be able to give blessings from God to someone through their priesthood, God can give anyone any blessing he wants by virtue of his own priesthood, whether the person he is blessing is a member of his Church or not.

Would this be an accurate statement of LDS doctrine?

In general, you've done a pretty poor job of representing our Lord's true doctrine, but I won't discount the possibility that your heart may be in the right place.

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Elf,

One man's side show freak is another man's saint.

My FIL, MIL, 2 of 3 BILS an aunt, uncle and associated cousins, along with my wife. Go about talking about how an angel led this guy to find some gold plates in a hole. Which he translated from an unknown language. Though he translated it by looking into a special rock, or his hat, or some combination thereof, rather than actually looking at the plates to translate from.

What he translated was about unknown people and the only substantive record of their existence is this work he translated. Then an angel packed off with the plates when he was done. All this was done to apparently "fix" Christianity. Which, by the way, they tell me has been broken for quite a long time.

Though they have never anointed me with oil, they have tried to lay hands on me on occasion, as well as laying hands on other people in order to heal them by the power of God.

They tell me that it would be best if I would come to agreement with them now on the matter.. get baptized and so forth into their religion. If I don't, I will miss out on lots stuff like my wife won't be eternally my wife, nor my family eternally my family. However, they say that if I don't come to agreement now, then perhaps I will change my mind after I am dead. But since a dead man can't get baptized and so forth, one of them would likely do me the courtesy of doing it for me.

Regardless, they seem to believe, because they consider me a decent fellow, that if I don't ever come to agreement with them, that at the end of the day, (in the afterlife) God will likely put in a place that would be better than anything I could have imagined, but terrible enough of a place that they are thankful not to have to go there themselves.

I certainly wouldn't assign them the caste of "side show freak", a carney or something like that. But I certainly would say that as far as the religious go, your MIL and SIL seem quite "run of the mill" in comparison.

Regards,

Mudcat

Fantastic post!

Brilliant post!

Masterpiece!

Top 3 all time at MADB!

And it comes from a silly Evangelical! Go figure :P

Bravo Mudcat (Well done friend!)

Peace,

Ceeboo

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