Son Ahman and Isaiah 65:16

[consiglieri]

In reading the last chapters of Isaiah Sunday morning in preparation for Gospel Doctrine class, I stumbled upon an interesting footnote in the Oxford Annotated Bible (New Revised Standard Version) to the following verse:

Isaiah 65:16

[volgadon]

Well, I was thinking the other day that man of righteousness fits perfectly the word ahman.

[David T]

Something of interest I read a while ago in Margaret Barker's "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (p. 112), and found this interesting discussion of a title given to Christ:

He is also 'the Amon, the beginning of God's Creation' (Rev 3:14). What must have originally been 'amon appears in the greek text as Amen, a more familiar word and another sign that the book of Revelation was translated into Greek. The original would have been 'amon, a word found in Proberbs 8.30 but nowhere else in the Hebrew Scriptures. As a result, nobody could be sure what it meant: 'child' has been suggested, but LXX understood it to mean 'carpenter', one 'who joins things together' (a reference to the bonds of the cosmic covenant) and so the meaning is probably the same as 'aman, which means a Craftsman. the Man is described as this craftsman.

Which kind of syncs with this description and definition of Awman from the Sample of Pure Language: "The being which made all things in all its parts",

This was the Great Carpenter, who traditionally and symbolically used the Square and Compass as tools in his acts of creation.

[kamenraider]

Well, I was thinking the other day that man of righteousness fits perfectly the word ahman.

Isn't a man of righteousness called a tzaddik though? I mean, isn't it a different word than "amen" or "ahman"?

[volgadon]

Oops, you are exactly right, Kamenraider. A momentary brainlapse.

[maklelan]

Something of interest I read a while ago in Margaret Barker's "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (p. 112), and found this interesting discussion of a title given to Christ:

Which kind of syncs with this description and definition of Awman from the Sample of Pure Language: "The being which made all things in all its parts",

This was the Great Carpenter, who traditionally and symbolically used the Square and Compass as tools in his acts of creation.

I've been thinking about pursuing 'amon as something akin to "craftsman." According to both Handy and Smith, the third tier of the Ugaritic pantheon comprises craftsmen deities, but this tier isn't really attested in the Hebrew Bible. I've been wondering if Wisdom is not the Israelite artisan deity who aided in the creation of the earth.

[David T]

I've been thinking about pursuing 'amon as something akin to "craftsman." According to both Handy and Smith, the third tier of the Ugaritic pantheon comprises craftsmen deities, but this tier isn't really attested in the Hebrew Bible. I've been wondering if Wisdom is not the Israelite artisan deity who aided in the creation of the earth.

What relation would the 'amon have to the idea of the dabar/memra/logos?

[consiglieri]

You guys have totally blown over my head in only 6 posts.

But I like it, I like it!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "Pundit in name only")

[WalkerW]

You guys have totally blown over my head in only 6 posts.

But I like it, I like it!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "Pundit in name only")

Makes you want to grab popcorn, doesn't it? Biblical brainstorming: I absolutely love it.

[WalkerW]

What relation would the 'amon have to the idea of the dabar/memra/logos?

Maklelan would know more than me, but wasn't Wisdom associated with this group by the time of Jesus? There were a number of intermediate deities or divinities, including Logos/Memra, Wisdom, Metatron, Yahoel, and Melchizedek. Considering 'amon is applied to Wisdom in Proverbs 8, I assume that would be the relation.

[maklelan]

What relation would the 'amon have to the idea of the dabar/memra/logos?

A lot of Christians want to connect Wisdom with a pre-mortal Christ, so that connection would go without saying. They see in Wisdom's claim to have existed prior to creation (Prov 8:22-30) an allusion to Christ's eternity. As I will argue in one of my papers at SBL, the text of Proverbs 8 implies Wisdom was procreated and was not without beginning. A couple good articles with discuss the source of the Johannine logos and the relationship of Wisdom are the following:

Daniel Boyarin, "The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the Prologue to John," Harvard Theological Review 94.3 (2001): 243-84.

Ed. L. Miller, "The Johannine Origins of the Johannine Logos," Journal of Biblical Literature 112.3 (1993): 445-57 (I disagree with this article's conclusion, but it provides a lot of good information).

[David T]

A lot of Christians want to connect Wisdom with a pre-mortal Christ, so that connection would go without saying. They see in Wisdom's claim to have existed prior to creation (Prov 8:22-30) an allusion to Christ's eternity. As I will argue in one my papers at SBL, the text of Proverbs 8 implies Wisdom was procreated and was not without beginning. A couple good articles with discuss the source of the Johannine logos and the relationship of Wisdom are the following:

Daniel Boyarin, "The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the Prologue to John," Harvard Theological Review 94.3 (2001): 243-84.

Ed. L. Miller, "The Johannine Origins of the Johannine Logos," Journal of Biblical Literature 112.3 (1993): 445-57 (I disagree with this article's conclusion, but it provides a lot of good information).

Awesome.

I understand that many of the separate attributes/roles were later conflated, and Christ was viewed as being the fulfillment/embodiment of them all. I was particularly interested in the earliest undeveloped Israelite view as it related to the pantheon - which appears to be your specialty.

[maklelan]

Awesome.

I understand that many of the separate attributes/roles were later conflated, and Christ was viewed as being the fulfillment/embodiment of them all. I was particularly interested in the earliest undeveloped Israelite view as it related to the pantheon - which appears to be your specialty.

I consider that my specialty, but I've still got a lot to learn. There was a pluriformity of beliefs during the time of formative Judaism and Christianity, so the different roles probably didn't all operate within a single united theology. They were probably the adaptations of the different communities. Ultimately, though, when the church was consolidated in the fourth century and after, it spent some time reconciling a lot of these views.

[David T]

I consider that my specialty, but I've still got a lot to learn. There was a pluriformity of beliefs during the time of formative Judaism and Christianity, so the different roles probably didn't all operate within a single united theology. They were probably the adaptations of the different communities. Ultimately, though, when the church was consolidated in the fourth century and after, it spent some time reconciling a lot of these views.

While I know you question (and disagree) a lot of her methodology and conclusions, I'm wondering as to your thoughts on Barker's discussion of the development of the role of the Memra/Logos in her The Great Angel... If I recall correctly, that discussion took up a nice size of the book.

[WalkerW]

Speaking of Daniel Boyarin, be sure to check out his Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2004). Includes his research from the 2001 article Maklelan referenced.

[volgadon]

Border Lines is superb.