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Expiration date on the Atonement?


Lamanite

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Will there be a time when the atoning sacrifice of our God be unable to save those who wish to be saved?

No, but I think there is a self-inflicted/imposed, de facto expiration date on when someone is no longer able to wish to be saved. An example is the effect on one's agency of persisting in sin despite other options clearly being available to them.

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Will there be a time when the atoning sacrifice of our God be unable to save those who wish to be saved?

My first response was, "What a crazy question!", but then I began to think on it outside the "box" of mortality...

IF you buy into Theosis, and we assume that we are not the first "generation" of children of God to be born... was there a previous "Atonement" for the last generation? IF we are to become like God, and have worlds of our own... will we have need of one of our Spirit children to fufill the role of Christ? Does the sacrifice of Christ expire at the time when the Earth recieves her paradisiacal glory?

There be a whole lot of assumptions in there. I have no good answers, just more questions.

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No, but I think there is a self-inflicted/imposed, de facto expiration date on when someone is no longer able to wish to be saved. An example is the effect on one's agency of persisting in sin despite other options clearly being available to them.

So in your mind, there is no possibility that 1.2 trillion years from now, someone in the Telestial kingdom would be incapable of wanting to become something more? That person could not humbly and sincerely pray that the atoning blood of the Son of God be applied to his sins and begin to chart a course of repentance and discipleship? Or rather, he could do such a thing, the Savior would just have to shrug his shoulders and say, "sorry... my hands are tied. My atonement had a shelf life."

Big UP!

Lamanite

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My first response was, "What a crazy question!", but then I began to think on it outside the "box" of mortality...

IF you buy into Theosis, and we assume that we are not the first "generation" of children of God to be born... was there a previous "Atonement" for the last generation? IF we are to become like God, and have worlds of our own... will we have need of one of our Spirit children to fufill the role of Christ? Does the sacrifice of Christ expire at the time when the Earth recieves her paradisiacal glory?

There be a whole lot of assumptions in there. I have no good answers, just more questions.

I believe the Atonement extends to all those whom the Father has created.

Big UP!

Lamanite

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So in your mind, there is no possibility that 1.2 trillion years from now, someone in the Telestial kingdom would be incapable of wanting to become something more?

I do believe anyone, mortal or immortal, anytime, anyplace, is capable of wanting to become something more, unless they have given up the agency to want something more. I believe that, under certain circumstances,

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...

I don't understand this abstract idea of absolute forfeiture of free will/agency??? There is absolutely no correlating event in all of human existence. Granted, someone can forfeit their agency and become a slave to sin. But there is no circumstance I can imagine that would completely abrogate the ability to exercise free will at any moment.

"18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, ahave mercy on me, who am bin the cgall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting dchains of edeath. 19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my a<a title="TG Peace of God." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/36/19a">pains bno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more."

I think this experience can be had by anyone at anytime.

Big UP!

Lamanite

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I think this experience can be had by anyone at anytime.

I take that along with what Alma said in Alma 34:31-39, and he should know (Alma 36: 17-19)!

31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

37 And now, my beloved brethren, I desire that ye should remember these things, and that ye should work out your salvation with fear before God, and that ye should no more deny the coming of Christ;

38 That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.

39 Yea, and I also exhort you, my brethren, that ye be watchful unto prayer continually, that ye may not be led away by the temptations of the devil, that he may not overpower you, that ye may not become his subjects at the last day; for behold, he rewardeth you no good thing.

While it reads like it pertains to this mortal life only, latter-day revelation leads me to believe that

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Do you think that the Atonement can ever, in all millenia to come, have a positive impact on the 1/3 who chose to follow satan? Do they still have a choice to change their minds?

No.

The Atonement is for Temporal sins, and spirits, in open and knowing rebellion, cannot repent, even if, and this, I believe is key, they wanted to. They do not, and have made themselves so evil that they cannot.

Lehi

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The way that I've always thought of - so this is from the Book of Gohan here - the application of the Atonement with continuing progression is an analogy with a race. We move forward at the same pace, but persons in each of the kingdoms have a different start time.

If that makes sense, probably doesn't, and in all likelihood is complete false doctrine...cheers! :-)

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No.

The Atonement is for Temporal sins, and spirits, in open and knowing rebellion, cannot repent, even if, and this, I believe is key, they wanted to. They do not, and have made themselves so evil that they cannot.

Lehi

What about people who were just shy of making it to the Celestial Kingdom? Terrestrial beings who were one swear word away from getting into Heaven, are they so evil that they cannot choose to repent?

Big UP!

Lamanite

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Do you think that the Atonement can ever, in all millenia to come, have a positive impact on the 1/3 who chose to follow satan? Do they still have a choice to change their minds?

You bet I believe they could repent if they wanted to.

When speaking of a similar topic, Brother Millet wrote, "Isn't such an approach risky? Aren't there those in the Church who will take advantage of this line of reasoning and then seek to rationalize their indifference, negligence, and eve disobedience? Yes, I suppose there will always be those who want to take license in gospel liberty. But I feel keenly that there is a greater risk: That those who are really trying to do their best but falling short will yield to discouragement and conclude that they are simply not cut out for eternal glory. " (Within Reach p 5)

Big UP!

Lamanite

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You bet I believe they could repent if they wanted to.

When speaking of a similar topic, Brother Millet wrote, "Isn't such an approach risky? Aren't there those in the Church who will take advantage of this line of reasoning and then seek to rationalize their indifference, negligence, and eve disobedience? Yes, I suppose there will always be those who want to take license in gospel liberty. But I feel keenly that there is a greater risk: That those who are really trying to do their best but falling short will yield to discouragement and conclude that they are simply not cut out for eternal glory. " (Within Reach p 5)

I have to respectfully disagree. Those who did not keep their first estate are out of luck, or so is my understanding.

I do not believe they could suddenly change their minds today, confess their sins to God, and regain their first estate.

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I have to respectfully disagree. Those who did not keep their first estate are out of luck, or so is my understanding.

I do not believe they could suddenly change their minds today, confess their sins to God, and regain their first estate.

Why? Can you point me to any doctrinal source that would suggest that the Atonement is not both infinite (reference to time) and eternal (reference to divinity)?

Big UP!

Lamanite

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What about people who were just shy of making it to the Celestial Kingdom? Terrestrial beings who were one swear word away from getting into Heaven, are they so evil that they cannot choose to repent?

I said "temporal", not "terrestrial" or "telestial".

The inability of people to repent is self-imposed. Satan and his minions have willingly chosen, by their actions (and now allegiance), to reject God wholly and irreversibly.

Those of us here, mortals from Adam to ??, the last baby born during the Millennium, will always have the ability to repent (sons of "Perdition"

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"Isn't such an approach risky? Aren't there those in the Church who will take advantage of this line of reasoning and then seek to rationalize their indifference, negligence, and eve disobedience? Yes, I suppose there will always be those who want to take license in gospel liberty. But I feel keenly that there is a greater risk: That those who are really trying to do their best but falling short will yield to discouragement and conclude that they are simply not cut out for eternal glory. " (Within Reach p 5)

I thought this was worth repeating.

Big UP!

Lamanite

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I said "temporal", not "terrestrial" or "telestial".

The inability of people to repent is self-imposed. Satan and his minions have willingly chosen, by their actions (and now allegiance), to reject God wholly and irreversibly.

Those of us here, mortals from Adam to ??, the last baby born during the Millennium, will always have the ability to repent (sons of "Perdition"

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Why? Can you point me to any doctrinal source that would suggest that the Atonement is not both infinite (reference to time) and eternal (reference to divinity)?

Can you show me a reference to where the atonement applies to beings who have not entered mortal life. Was not the purpose of the atonement to free us from our sins in mortality?

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You bet I believe they could repent if they wanted to.

When speaking of a similar topic, Brother Millet wrote, "Isn't such an approach risky? Aren't there those in the Church who will take advantage of this line of reasoning and then seek to rationalize their indifference, negligence, and eve disobedience? Yes, I suppose there will always be those who want to take license in gospel liberty. But I feel keenly that there is a greater risk: That those who are really trying to do their best but falling short will yield to discouragement and conclude that they are simply not cut out for eternal glory. " (Within Reach p 5)

Big UP!

Lamanite

Lamanite,

This comment reminded me of a favorite Ensign article by Bruce C. Hafen in which he writes:

Our reluctance to stress the doctrine of grace is understandable. Nephi wrote,

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What in all of the universe would annihilate free will after the judgment?

I don't think I said the free will of "bad people" erodes further after the judgment, but the ability to act further does cease, or at best, is severely limited to the bounds of a particular kingdom, hence the term, "damnation." "Bad people" can want something better after the judgment, but they won't get it; and then I think it reasonable that may give up wanting it anymore after they get acclimated to what they've got. If my understanding is correct, they wanted the same thing well before the resurrection, but not enough to do or become what it takes to get it. A drastic example is that Satan wanted God's glory; well, we want it to, but are going about it in a different way with a different perspective and intent.

If what you call

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P.S. when I said, "I do believe anyone, mortal or immortal, anytime, anyplace, is capable of wanting to become something more, unless they have given up the agency to want something more." I meant that, for immortals, they can want to "become something more" and not be able to do anything about it if they are consigned to a lesser kingdom. They may choose to end their suffering by ceasing to want to "become something more" anymore, virtually giving up their agency to want to "become something more." They surrender their agency with regards to that subject to themselves in a kind of "I don't want to want to want..." syndrome. Their will is certainly less than God's, but they follow it according to the law of that kingdom in which they dwell. People who are not yet immortal can want to "become something more" and not do what it takes, and thus surrender their agency to the devil in the process.

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