Ancient Lake Tonawanda

[Bart Burk]

Phyllis Olive has written a book in which she claims the Book of Mormon setting was New York State. She specifically discusses an Ancient Lake Tonawanda:

...the Great Lakes experienced a number of changes during their long history. During such changes, a small inland sea called Lake Tonawanda was left ponded in the flat plains of western New York between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie. Radiocarbon samples of the sediment in the vicinity of Niagara Falls in 1978, led Calkin and Brett of the State University of New York

[handys003]

No but the Great Lakes have changed much over the years. She is stretching with very light evidence. There are ancient fortifications throughout the Mississippi valley regions as well. She is going to need more archaeological sites to verify her supposition. There were also ancient hunter and gathering sites that were used when Lake Huron was lower in water depth.

http://www.physorg.com/news165753727.html

[Sevenbak]

Phyllis Olive has written a book in which she claims the Book of Mormon setting was New York State. She specifically discusses an Ancient Lake Tonawanda:

The web site is here:

http://www.bookofmormonlands.com/link%20six.htm

Does anyone know anything about Ancient Lake Tonawanda? Is it possible that it still existed 1000 years ago?

It wasn't just the Great Lakes that were different.

If you look at the Great Hopewell Road, for example, some of the 60 miles (90 miles by new discoveries) goes through swamps and streams today.

The Limited Great Lakes model folks think Towanda makes their case, but everything else has to stay the same for it to work.

It doesn't.

[Sevenbak]

Speaking of long gone ancient lakes that reference BoM times, I'm reminded of this little snippet from "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder", by Apostle Legrande Richards. This is the "WASHOE INDIAN LEGEND" he writes about, the great intermountain lake that disappeared after immense volcanic upheaval and 3 days of darkness.

"Long time, heap long time. Maybe one hundred years, Injun no sabe, white man sabe. My grandfather's father, he heap old man. Maybe two, three hundred years, me dunno, Carson Valley, Waso Valley, Truskee Valley, Long Valley, Pilamid Lake, Lublock, eblywhere all water, plenty pish, plenty duck. Big pish too, now no see him no more, all go away, no come back.

Wasu Injun, he lib big mountains "pointing to the Comstock and Pyramid range". Sometime Wasu Indian takem boat go see Piutee, maybe Piutee he take em boat to see Wasu Indian, Yash eh good friend, all time.

"Pointing to the Sierra to the west of Washoe Valley, the old Indian continued:

"Big mountain all time pire, plenty 'boom, 'boom, heap smoke, Injun heap flaid! Byme bye, one day, mountain heap smoke, heap noise, glound too much shake, Injun heap flaid, pall down, plenty cly. He sun ebly day come up "pointing to the northeast" he go down, "pointing to the southwest". One day no come up, Injun no sabe, mountain heap smoke, glound plenty shake, wind blow, water head mad. Maybe two, tlee day sun he no come, Injun no eat, no sleep, all time, cly, cly. Yash, heap flaid. Bymen bye water make plenty nose, go plenty fast like Tlukee Liver; water go down, down, mountain come up, come up, plenty mud, plenty pish die, byme bye sun come back over this mountain "pointing to the southeast" he go down ober there "pointing to the northwest". Yash, white man sabe, Injun no sabe.

"Maybe two, tlee, week, mud he dly up, Piutee. Wasu Injun walk, no more boat. All water he go; maybe little water Pilamid Lake, Honey Lake, Wasu Lake, too much mountain, he come purty quick. Yash, Injun no sabe, water, big pish no come back. No see him no more."

Just some food for thought...

[Zakuska]

"Long time, heap long time. Maybe one hundred years, Injun no sabe, white man sabe. My grandfather's father, he heap old man. Maybe two, three hundred years, me dunno, Carson Valley, Waso Valley, Truskee Valley, Long Valley, Pilamid Lake, Lublock, eblywhere all water, plenty pish, plenty duck. Big pish too, now no see him no more, all go away, no come back.

Why is an american Indian speaking Portuguese?

[Sevenbak]

Why is an american Indian speaking Portuguese?

Perhaps it's not Portuguese in and of it'self.

Dr. Goddard, of the Smithsonian Institution, was reported as believing that Kemo Sabe was from the Tewa dialect. He supported his contention by calling on the "Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians" which appeared in the 29th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1916). It seems that in Tewa, "Apache" equates to Sabe and "friend" to Kema.

I think the Lone Ranger and Tonto picked up on this idea.

[USU78]

Why is an american Indian speaking Portuguese?

That's just pidgin . . .

[mfbukowski]

That's just pidgin . . .

Yes, I have heard they could talk to the birds and other animals too.... and paint with all the colors of the wind!

I was raised in Tonawanda NY so I know these things.

[USU78]

Yes, I have heard they could talk to the birds and other animals too.... and paint with all the colors of the wind!

I was raised in Tonawanda NY so I know these things.

Dang . . . my people came from Oneida, quite a ways East on I-90 . . . and they never learned why the bobcat grins . . . and they used to chop down sycamores. I feel so deprived.

[handys003]

Why is an american Indian speaking Portuguese?

Nah brah da portagee comme stay with da kine and make hawaii mo betta tan da kine. No can make da kine indian geev'um best at da kine! Wat yu stay lolo da somtin?

[babalu]

doubtful, the only thing that happens in ny is terrible football and high taxes...

[nosmelone]

Perhaps it's not Portuguese in and of it'self.

Dr. Goddard, of the Smithsonian Institution, was reported as believing that Kemo Sabe was from the Tewa dialect. He supported his contention by calling on the "Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians" which appeared in the 29th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1916). It seems that in Tewa, "Apache" equates to Sabe and "friend" to Kema.

I think the Lone Ranger and Tonto picked up on this idea.

I agree, I know some Tewa people live on First Mesa (Hano,Walpi, Sichmovi) area with the Hopi. Originally accepted to that mesa as a protector group for the Peaceful Hopi. I was just recently there in March to see some Hopi and Tewa ceremonial dances and of course their language is a dialect of Uto Aztecan which may have ties to Portuguese.

[USU78]

Nah brah da portagee comme stay with da kine and make hawaii mo betta tan da kine. No can make da kine indian geev'um best at da kine! Wat yu stay lolo da somtin?

Teenkeen bout all dat make me all pupule already! Portagee sabe nuttin, cept gettin kama'aina discount at Hilo Hattie's.

[USU78]

Perhaps it's not Portuguese in and of it'self.

Dr. Goddard, of the Smithsonian Institution, was reported as believing that Kemo Sabe was from the Tewa dialect. He supported his contention by calling on the "Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians" which appeared in the 29th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1916). It seems that in Tewa, "Apache" equates to Sabe and "friend" to Kema.

I think the Lone Ranger and Tonto picked up on this idea.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/971/in-the-old-lone-ranger-series-what-did-kemosabe-mean

I prefer qui no sabe, roughly, "clueless."

[handys003]

Teenkeen bout all dat make me all pupule already! Portagee sabe nuttin, cept gettin kama'aina discount at Hilo Hattie's.

See me for discount next time.

[USU78]

oops

[Bart Burk]

So does anyone have a clue when Ancient Lake Tonawanda disappeared? I can't find anything on the internet other than Olive's claim.

[mfbukowski]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/971/in-the-old-lone-ranger-series-what-did-kemosabe-mean

I prefer qui no sabe, roughly, "clueless."

Great stuff!

[mfbukowski]

So does anyone have a clue when Ancient Lake Tonawanda disappeared? I can't find anything on the internet other than Olive's claim.

Not a clue, but I can tell you there are creeks in the area that come pretty close to flood stage in the spring and they have had to do some flood diversion channels etc in that area. The area definitely tends to be under water.

The Erie Canal runs right through that area too, and I lived along Ellicott Creek, which in Utah or California would be called a "river" and if anybody cares, there are shots of it available on Google earth- look up Ellicott Creek road in Amherst NY and zoom down to street level and take a look. Perhaps the Erie Canal had some effect in draining what might have been a rather swampy area - but I really have no clue of what it was like before the canal.

[Bart Burk]

Not a clue, but I can tell you there are creeks in the area that come pretty close to flood stage in the spring and they have had to do some flood diversion channels etc in that area. The area definitely tends to be under water.

The Erie Canal runs right through that area too, and I lived along Ellicott Creek, which in Utah or California would be called a "river" and if anybody cares, there are shots of it available on Google earth- look up Ellicott Creek road in Amherst NY and zoom down to street level and take a look. Perhaps the Erie Canal had some effect in draining what might have been a rather swampy area - but I really have no clue of what it was like before the canal.

I kept looking and it does seem as if Lake Tonawanda dried up relatively recently -- at least after claimed Book of Mormon times. Olive's book actually offers more support for the Book of Mormon than anything I have seen out of FARMS. It seems as if New York geography would have been much different from anything during Joseph Smith's time. Joseph Smith would not have known that and it is possible the little geography found in the Book of Mormon may line up well with ancient New York geography.

[mfbukowski]

I kept looking and it does seem as if Lake Tonawanda dried up relatively recently -- at least after claimed Book of Mormon times. Olive's book actually offers more support for the Book of Mormon than anything I have seen out of FARMS. It seems as if New York geography would have been much different from anything during Joseph Smith's time. Joseph Smith would not have known that and it is possible the little geography found in the Book of Mormon may line up well with ancient New York geography.

Well, if so, it might prove to be a VERY interesting hypothesis. Back to the one-Cumorah theory?

Bart, don't I know you from CAF?

[Bart Burk]

Well, if so, it might prove to be a VERY interesting hypothesis. Back to the one-Cumorah theory?

Bart, don't I know you from CAF?

Yes -- I'm trying to reread the Book of Mormon from the point of view of a believer. I've gotten through the first 20 chapters of 1 Nephi at this point. Seriously, it is difficult to read it that way, but I find Olive's theory very interesting. As an active Mormon I could never accept the two Cumorah theory which seemed to be in fashion among all the BYU folk. It seemed like a fall back position because they couldn't accept the Great Lakes setting. The more I read the more I think the Great Lakes setting is very plausible if one were to accept the Book of Mormon for what it says it is.

[Anijen]

I kept looking and it does seem as if Lake Tonawanda dried up relatively recently -- at least after claimed Book of Mormon times. Olive's book actually offers more support for the Book of Mormon than anything I have seen out of FARMS. It seems as if New York geography would have been much different from anything during Joseph Smith's time. Joseph Smith would not have known that and it is possible the little geography found in the Book of Mormon may line up well with ancient New York geography.

Olives book has some issues. Before you commit one way or another I suggest reading some reviews I believe FAIR and FARMS offers some. Personally I find her book lacking any credibility and is serious lacking any scholarship. I compared her maps and they don't resemble anything like what the text of the Book of Mormon claims.

My link

[Bart Burk]

Olives book has some issues. Before you commit one way or another I suggest reading some reviews I believe FAIR and FARMS offers some. Personally I find her book lacking any credibility and is serious lacking any scholarship. I compared her maps and they don't resemble anything like what the text of the Book of Mormon claims.

My link

Please understand that I left Mormonism for the Catholic Church because the Book of Mormon didn't seem credible to me. What really struck me as folly was the attempt to try to save the Book of Mormon by postulating a two Cumorah theory with the real Cumorah in Central America or Mexico when the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith seem to identify the hill as being in New York. Olive's book is the first real attempt I have seen to support the traditional understanding of Mormonism and I find it much more credible than anything coming out of FARMS. I could actually accept an understanding which has the Book of Mormon occuring in the Eastern United States because it would square with the teachings of Mormon prophets.

[Anijen]

Olive's book actually offers more support for the Book of Mormon than anything I have seen out of FARMS.

Could you give us a link or quote what you think is so supportive? Because I find this hard to believe. What in particular do you feel is so compelling? How have you compared her theories to Sorenson's or others? Seriously saying Olives book "offers more support for the Book of Mormon than anything I have seen out of FARMS." is like comparing Homer Simpson to Truman Madsen. I just don't see it. Agreed this is only my opinion but a well studied out one at that.

It seems as if New York geography would have been much different from anything during Joseph Smith's time

No, not really, Palmyra hasn't changed that much.

it is possible the little geography found in the Book of Mormon

There is a lot more than you are probably aware. There are plenty of directional clues and other geographical hints that help us determine geography.

may line up well with ancient New York geography.

Again please support this. An old map comparing to the text of the Book of Mormon or something.