Cuicuilco as Jacubagath

[Olavarria]

3 Nephi 9:9

9)And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

3 Ne. 7: 9, 12

9)Now this secret combination, which had brought so great iniquity upon the people, did gather themselves together, and did place at their head a man whom they did call Jacob;

[poulsenll]

Jacobugath

1)It was a "great city".

2)caused to be burned with fire, at around 33AD.

3)was at the northernmost part of the land

4)"there build up unto themselves a kingdom", I read this as meaning the city already existed. For example, Cuba existed before Fidel Castro, yet Castro escaped exile in Mexico and built unto himself a kingdom there.

Cuicuilco

1)Had a population of around 20,000 souls.

2)Destroyed by a volcano at around 100 AD.

3)Was in the Valley of Mexico,which is far north of BoM lands ala Sorenson's model.

4)Already existed for hundreds of years before the days of Jacob. How these Nephite dissenters would have taken over such a city, I don't know. But such takeovers have happened before(Mao, Castro).

So is Cuicuilco Jacubagath? Who knows? It's possible.

Everything fits. Gardner also believes that, at the time of the final battle, the Gadianton robbers were centered at Teotihuacan. It would make sense if Cuicuilco were Jacobagath, his influence would have extended to Teothuacan. Although Teotihuacan existed prior to the death of the Savior, it started to flourish shortly thereafter. This would fit with a movement of the robber cults to Teotihuacan after the destruction of Jacobagath. This would not necesarily eliminate the possibility of some righteous groups within the Teotihuacan polity. All the evidence suggests that Teotihuacan contained different cultural enclaves.

Larry P

[Olavarria]

I agree with brant's assesment for various reasons i have outlines in my blog:

Classic Teotihuacan and The Gadianton Robbers

Teotihuacan in the Book of Mormon?

The BoM only makes 2 references to cities that are very far northward from Nephite

lands. One matches Teotihucan, the other matches Cuicuilco. It's interesting.

[Olavarria]

Note

Recent studies indicate that the date of the Xitle eruption was almost to 3oo years later than previously thought.

Suddenly, I feel like CNN

[Sevenbak]

In order to make this claim, one needs to throw out all the statements by Brigham Young, and others, even as recent as Spencer W. Kimball, that stated the Gaddianton Robbers occupied the Mountains of the Southwest.

Also, 3 Nephi 7 states that Jacob and his band fled to the "northernmost part of the land" which was also "out of the reach of the people". If it was Cuicuilco, that wouldn't be far enough away to be out of the reach of the Nephites who were trying to destroy them at all costs.

[Olavarria]

In order to make this claim, one needs to throw out all the statements by Brigham Young, and others, even as recent as Spencer W. Kimball, that stated the Gaddianton Robbers occupied the Mountains of the Southwest.

Fine with me. The only thing that keeps me from embracing this cuicuilco=jacobugath identification is the latest geological research that points to a 4th century eruption of Xitle.Im no geologist so I don't know which to accept the research from the 90's or the 2000. Time will tell.

Also, 3 Nephi 7 states that Jacob and his band fled to the "northernmost part of the land" which was also "out of the reach of the people". If it was Cuicuilco, that wouldn't be far enough away to be out of the reach of the Nephites who were trying to destroy them at all costs.

Well, Cuicuilco and Teotihuacan are neighbors, and Teo dominated southern Mexico starting at the early classic. So if it was close enough for Teo, it would have been close enough for Cuicuilco. I don't see where the idea that the nephites were tryingto destroy them "at all costs" comes from, or that they would chase them all the way up to Mexico(state).

[Olavarria]

Research for the 100AD claim of the Xitle eruption.

1) Here

2) Here

[poulsenll]

Fine with me. The only thing that keeps me from embracing this cuicuilco=jacobugath identification is the latest geological research that points to a 4th century eruption of Xitle.Im no geologist so I don't know which to accept the research from the 90's or the 2000. Time will tell.

Well, Cuicuilco and Teotihuacan are neighbors, and Teo dominated southern Mexico starting at the early classic. So if it was close enough for Teo, it would have been close enough for Cuicuilco. I don't see where the idea that the nephites were tryingto destroy them "at all costs" comes from, or that they would chase them all the way up to Mexico(state).

After a brief scan of the article I get the impression that the article is biased toward the authors measurements and does not take into account the possibility of multiple eruptions. However it is not an important issue except as it relates to the possibility of this being the location of Jacobagath. It is possible that an eruption destroyed the city but did not destroy the surrounding area. As noted by the maps, the present area of lava flow is very extensive and may be the product of multiple eruptions. The fact that different dates are found in different parts of the flow is an indication of multiple eruptions, a common characteristic of volocanoes located in earthquake zones.

Larry P

[Olavarria]

After a brief scan of the article I get the impression that the article is biased toward the authors measurements and does not take into account the possibility of multiple eruptions. However it is not an important issue except as it relates to the possibility of this being the location of Jacobagath. It is possible that an eruption destroyed the city but did not destroy the surrounding area. As noted by the maps, the present area of lava flow is very extensive and may be the product of multiple eruptions. The fact that different dates are found in different parts of the flow is an indication of multiple eruptions, a common characteristic of volocanoes located in earthquake zones.

Larry P

Thanks, for chiming in:)

I think pg 60 of the 2001 study is interesting.

"The great variability of radiocarbon ages, ranging

from 400 BC to AD 400, is most likely the result of

sampling from different stratigraphic levels and

contexts."

fun stuff