Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Joseph's view about Cumorah


Sevenbak

Recommended Posts

Right, but the new theories put all their basis in the understanding men, none of which are leaders of the Church, who have stated over and over their teachings on the matter. I just don't understand why there is a need to think we are smarter then they ever were when it comes to reading the text. It doesn't make sense to me, and I find it problematic.

They assumed there was only one Hill Cumorah. We are not smarter, just that we no longer make that assumption.

And yet, the teachings of a single Cumorah continue to be taught church wide in the seminary and Institute programs. If the absence of statements within the last few years by General Authorities speaks to a shift in understanding, why does the Church still teach it? Why are the new pageants continuing to teach it?

CFR, that the church currently teaches that the hill Cumorah in NY is the same as the hill in the BOM. The lesson manuals may quote previous church leaders who had made that assumption, but I am not aware of any church leader that teaches that today.

But you made that claim, so let's see what you got.

Finally, BOM geography is not a doctrine of the church. It is a factual issue which is subject to research.

Now we're back to assumptions. I thought you weren't going to play that game with me anymore? :P

Why does the correlated curriculum quote prophets teaching a New York Cumorah if it's only an assumption? It's the whole idea of a manual to pass on the teachings of the Church to future generations.

Yes, BoM Geography is not a doctrine of the Church, and outside of Cumorah's location, there are few locations that have ever been taught or even speculated on. Cumorah in New York is the exception, as it has long been taught, and has a bold history in the writings of the prophets as the location as the final battle site.

It's good enough for me.

Link to comment

... Moroni sealed them up separately, but he still had to have access to the library to finish the work.

You seem to be assuming that Moroni "had to have access" to the actual plates of the Jaredites as discovered by the people of Limhi. But we know that ancient people were known to produce "permanent/master" copies of their records as well as less permanent copies to be distributed among many people desiring those same words. Thus, when the believers in Ammonihah were to be burned, the disbelievers first of all gathered together and burned the believers' copies of the sacred writings, whereas things like the plates of brass and the plates of Nephi were obviously not affected.

It would be absurd to assume that the only available copies of Nephite sacred records were in the form of the original metallic plates that constituted the "master" copies.

I think it is much more likely that Moroni would have worked from a copy of the Jaredite records; one more adapted to carrying around with him on his journeys, rather than the obviously cumbersome original gold plates.

You see, you need to be careful about the assumptions you make ... there may very well be viable alternative explanations.

Critics make the same error when dealing with the extant manuscripts that contain portions of the Book of Abraham. There are many indications that these were copies of the original translation manuscript(s), prepared for personal use.

Link to comment

You seem to be assuming that Moroni "had to have access" to the actual plates of the Jaredites as discovered by the people of Limhi. But we know that ancient people were known to produce "permanent/master" copies of their records as well as less permanent copies to be distributed among many people desiring those same words. Thus, when the believers in Ammonihah were to be burned, the disbelievers first of all gathered together and burned the believers' copies of the sacred writings, whereas things like the plates of brass and the plates of Nephi were obviously not affected.

It would be absurd to assume that the only available copies of Nephite sacred records were in the form of the original metallic plates that constituted the "master" copies.

I think it is much more likely that Moroni would have worked from a copy of the Jaredite records; one more adapted to carrying around with him on his journeys, rather than the obviously cumbersome original gold plates.

You see, you need to be careful about the assumptions you make ... there may very well be viable alternative explanations.

Critics make the same error when dealing with the extant manuscripts that contain portions of the Book of Abraham. There are many indications that these were copies of the original translation manuscript(s), prepared for personal use.

Except that's not what Moroni said. He was specific about where he was getting his account from.

Ether 1:

1 AND now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

Link to comment

Further, I would add that there were many things on the Jaredite plates that were specifically not to be translated yet by command of the Lord, and yet Moroni had read them and warned us about them, only giving us his abridgment. He also speaks of the words of Ether being so powerful that it was overpowering to read them. By his own admission, his translation was inadequate and weak.

He had the plates, not a small translation of same.

Link to comment

Why does the correlated curriculum quote prophets teaching a New York Cumorah if it's only an assumption? It's the whole idea of a manual to pass on the teachings of the Church to future generations.

Assumptions are wonderful things but they are still that. Sevenbak in all earnestness of heart just because these were taught in the past doesn't mean that some of what our past leaders taught were not their own opinions. Our turning to the Savior and accepting His gospel does not mean we accept everything that our leaders say is unchanging law. Even if quoted at conference. After all we are not talking about saving doctrines here.

Did not our church leaders at one time believe that the Earth was the center of the universe? Yes probably, they did and when we found out it wasn't, did it take anything away from the gospel? Nope not, one bit. Did not our church leaders in Christs time and way into the medieval times think the earth was flat? Yes they did, and when we found out it wasn't it didn't take away our respect for them.

Moving on. Now when you say; from the "correlated curriculum... teachings of the Church to future generations." Seminary manuals certainly do not teach this. In fact you would be correct if you said they used to teach this, but you did not.

If what you say is correct to teach future generations, why would the Church/CES not teach this anymore? why would it be taken out of the manuals? There is no current seminary manual that teaches the final battle was in New York. I was personally told the church does not have any doctrinal geography of the final battle place and that any assumptions of this taught in the past was just speculation.

Notice in this image from the current manual that both Bountiful and Desolation is relatively close to the other locations. not 2500+ miles away however it is a suggested placings and is made purposely unidentifiable to any known geographic location.

294.gif

Alma 22:29

And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

This scripture tells us that bountiful was on the border. I notice you like to say "way North" and use such terms. You also like to use verse 30 and point out and bold "so far Northward." "so far" in no way equates to 2500+ miles. If Zerahemla was in Central America (were the prophets have said it was) how is it possible for the people of Zerahemla to discover this land of desolation 2500+ miles away in the time span their given? We are talking 21 days here not 4 years.

Yucatan to Cumorah NY is approximately 5000 miles (round trip). I cant even begin to buy into this logic, it makes no sense. I am getting the 21 days from the people of Zarahemla in Alma not when Mormon is negotiating a time and place for the battle. BTW the four years was not for travel time but mainly for gathering and preparing. You often unknowingly insult me by saying you will trust in God and not in the hand of man (as if I do the opposite) please note I haven't quoted any scholar but only scripture.

Just saying

Anijen

edited cuz I need to fix it forty times and even then it comes out garbled....

Link to comment

Okey dokey. Please give us ONE reference prior to 1950 that refers to the Hill Cumorah in the BOM text as situated somewhere besides NY -- the second Hill Cumorah theory.

Let's see whether you are able to intelligently continue this conversation or if this is all blah blah blah.....

Let's see what you got.

Furthermore, please show us any revelation from the Prophet as to exactly where the Hill Cumorah is, other than the place mentioned beforehand. I wonder when there will come a time when talking about a different Cumorah will be considered apostasy and subject to disciplinary action. Haven

Link to comment

Furthermore, please show us any revelation from the Prophet as to exactly where the Hill Cumorah is, other than the place mentioned beforehand. I wonder when there will come a time when talking about a different Cumorah will be considered apostasy and subject to disciplinary action. Haven

Link to comment

Furthermore, please show us any revelation from the Prophet as to exactly where the Hill Cumorah is, other than the place mentioned beforehand. I wonder when there will come a time when talking about a different Cumorah will be considered apostasy and subject to disciplinary action. Haven

Link to comment

Wow. There have been some beautiful and well-thought out arguments for the Heartland Model of BoM Geography in this thread.

If the idea of a NY Cumorah is totally incompatible with a Yucatan Book of Mormon, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to move Cumorah south.

Link to comment

Wow. There have been some beautiful and well-thought out arguments for the Heartland Model of BoM Geography in this thread.

If the idea of a NY Cumorah is totally incompatible with a Yucatan Book of Mormon, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to move Cumorah south.

Let me see.

Written records, including books (codices). A sophisticated calendar. Cities made of cement. Human sacrifice.

Yep, sounds like New York to me.

Link to comment

Assumptions are wonderful things but they are still that. Sevenbak in all earnestness of heart just because these were taught in the past doesn't mean that some of what our past leaders taught were not their own opinions. Leaders often tell when they are giving mere opinion. I can't think of a single reference out of so many General Authorities that say Cumorah in NY is merely an opinion. Our turning to the Savior and accepting His gospel does not mean we accept everything that our leaders say is unchanging law. Even if quoted at conference. After all we are not talking about saving doctrines here. Agreed, but that doesn't change the fact that not a single one ever said it was merely opinion. Other locations, yes, but Comorah is consistent, except for some scholarly circles, not associated with Church leadership.

Did not our church leaders at one time believe that the Earth was the center of the universe? Not necessarily. And certainly not a consistent teaching, affirmed over and over for nearly 200 years like Cumorah has been. Yes probably, they did and when we found out it wasn't, did it take anything away from the gospel? Nope not, one bit. Did not our church leaders in Christs time and way into the medieval times think the earth was flat? Yes they did, and when we found out it wasn't it didn't take away our respect for them. CFR that early Church in the meridian of time, or other prophets at any time thought the world was flat? That simply not consistent with the teachings of Abraham, as taught by Joseph Smith. What are you referring to, the ancient prophets thinking the world was flat?

Moving on. Now when you say; from the "correlated curriculum... teachings of the Church to future generations." Seminary manuals certainly do not teach this. In fact you would be correct if you said they used to teach this, but you did not. It was only within the last year that the Institute Manual was replacesdwith a much smaller, limited manual. Are you saying the Church only stopped teaching a New York Cumorah this last year only?

If what you say is correct to teach future generations, why would the Church/CES not teach this anymore? why would it be taken out of the manuals? A whole lot of stuff was eliminated from the manuals. Same as the Missionary Discussions, same as the Gospel Doctrine manuals, Sunday School lessons, Home Teaching message, etc. It's the direction the church is moving in many things, relying more on spiritual teachings. Does that mean it's not still true? No. Has it ever been refuted by a General Authority? No. There is no current seminary manual that teaches the final battle was in New York. I was personally told the church does not have any doctrinal geography of the final battle place and that any assumptions of this taught in the past was just speculation. I spent a great deal of time with the Mission President in charge of the Palmyra sites, JS Home, Grandin, Cumorah, etc. working on a Church History doc just a couple years back. His answer to me, when I posed the same question, is that it's still a teaching of the Church, but they don't push it, as many members are divided on the issue. Frankly, it's too bad, IMO. But, it makes a lot of sense why they don't discuss it anymore.

Notice in this image from the current manual that both Bountiful and Desolation is relatively close to the other locations. not 2500+ miles away however it is a suggested placings and is made purposely unidentifiable to any known geographic location. One mans opinion or interpretation of a map, does not make truth. Bountiful and Desolation are refered to each other in proximaty as being a line or border to each other, not the specifics of their size and overall location.

This scripture tells us that bountiful was on the border. I notice you like to say "way North" and use such terms. You also like to use verse 30 and point out and bold "so far Northward." "so far" in no way equates to 2500+ miles. No one said 2500 miles. And no one knows exactly how far an "exceedingly great distance" was. If Zerahemla was in Central America (were the prophets have said it was) how is it possible for the people of Zerahemla to discover this land of desolation 2500+ miles away in the time span their given? We are talking 21 days here not 4 years.

Um, no. Zeniff's men weren't gone for just 21 days, we don't know how long they were gone, only they were 'diligent', and found a land of many waters, and a battle ground. Remember that millions had been killed in the war long before Ramah. It doesn't even say they went all the way to Ramah / Cumorah. That is an assumption that Ether left the plates at the last battle scene. The text doesn't say that. Much of the US is filled with many waters and rivers.

To me, there is more than meets the eye in the phrase "they were diligent". If they got lost, and they did, and kept going to explore their lands, seeing so many battle scenes to find out what happened, that to me makes them diligent. That's mere speculation on my part, of course, but the text certainly doesn't say they went all the way to N.Y.

Yucatan to Cumorah NY is approximately 5000 miles (round trip). Why the round trip, doubling the number? Why go all the way to N. Y. either, the text doesn't say they did. I cant even begin to buy into this logic, it makes no sense. Me neither, I am getting the 21 days from the people of Zarahemla in Alma not when Mormon is negotiating a time and place for the battle. Where is the 21 days they took to find the 24 plates. I think you are using the assumption of their initial trip to the land of Nephi, not when they became "lost" in the wilderness, and "diligent" in their efforts. BTW the four years was not for travel time but mainly for gathering and preparing. CFR is was not fleeing. Mormon 5 and 6 is the key. If the LGT folks can't determine where the city of Jordan was, and all the fleeing and dying happened after that, in the process of "gathering" people to Cumorah, then we have a problem. Also, you will need to define what the difference is in the "land of Cumorah" vs. just the hill. How big was it? I'm guessing pretty big, given how big other "lands" were. You often unknowingly insult me by saying you will trust in God and not in the hand of man (as if I do the opposite) please note I haven't quoted any scholar but only scripture. Yes I have, and I apologize for my sometimes overzealous efforts. I've been thinking about this a lot, and how it just causes contention among us fellow believes in the Restored gospel. I think we can all take this reference to heart, I know I did. I'm sorry if I come across as a jerk at times.

Alma 4:8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began... to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.

Just saying

Anijen

edited cuz I need to fix it forty times and even then it comes out garbled.... No worries, I do the same thing.

Link to comment

Furthermore, please show us any revelation from the Prophet as to exactly where the Hill Cumorah is, other than the place mentioned beforehand. I wonder when there will come a time when talking about a different Cumorah will be considered apostasy and subject to disciplinary action. Haven

Link to comment

Wow. There have been some beautiful and well-thought out arguments for the Heartland Model of BoM Geography in this thread.

If the idea of a NY Cumorah is totally incompatible with a Yucatan Book of Mormon, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to move Cumorah south.

Oh, I hope not, if you mean "Heartland only" model. There is much truth to most of the BoM happening in Mesoamerica. The migrations north happened toward the end.

Link to comment

Let me see.

Written records, including books (codices). A sophisticated calendar. Cities made of cement. Human sacrifice.

Yep, sounds like New York to me.

Let me see.

Written records, check. Cumrah's cave, many wagons full of records

Sophisticated Calendar? Not sure they would take that with them, or have time to make another up north. Hopewell structures are alined with the solstices though, if that helps.

Cement? Traveling armies don't build with cement, they pitch tents, they are mobile. Even the reference to the land northward (which was big) put tents first before cement. Also, with little timber, how do you make good strong cement? You need fire to heat the limestone. We don't have to try to compare our own version of Portland Cement with the BoM reference. We just don't know what that means. Also, my driveway is crumbling after just a decade. Why should they have superior cement without lumber to burn to make it? But large fortifications have been found, just like the text says they built them, and tons and tons of brass weapons too.

Human Sacrifice? Check, the Hopewell practiced it too.

BTW, none of the LGT folks has told me where Moroni stashed the 24 Jaredite Plates, as he was translating Ether and traveling to NY... or where he got them to begin with.

Link to comment

Anijen, seriously, thanks for the smackdown and heads up. I'm going to repeat the Alma reference here, to help drive home the message of not going overboard in defending what I believe on the matter.

Cheers.

Alma 4:8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began... to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.

Let's not go here:

3029054.jpg

Edited to add: This isn't really accurate, as I don't buy into a "Great Lakes Only" model, but you get the idea. :P

Link to comment

Further, I would add that there were many things on the Jaredite plates that were specifically not to be translated yet by command of the Lord, and yet Moroni had read them and warned us about them, only giving us his abridgment. He also speaks of the words of Ether being so powerful that it was overpowering to read them. By his own admission, his translation was inadequate and weak.

He had the plates ...

A strong assertion. But it lacks evidentiary support.

Besides, don't you remember that "the records which contained the holy scriptures" were destroyed by the Ammonihahites while Alma and Amulek looked on:

Alma 14

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

I wonder if anyone was smart enough to sift through the ashes afterwards and retrieve the gold from all the plates that were thrown in the fire?

Link to comment

A strong assertion. But it lacks evidentiary support.

Besides, don't you remember that "the records which contained the holy scriptures" were destroyed by the Ammonihahites while Alma and Amulek looked on:

I wonder if anyone was smart enough to sift through the ashes afterwards and retrieve the gold from all the plates that were thrown in the fire?

How is that a comparison?

The text doesn't say they burned plates, gold or copper or otherwise. The believers among the Ammonihahites were the poor, downtrodden class from an apostate group that separated themselves from the Nephites and the Church. Why would they have any of the original record?

Even if they did, what is the point? Moroni specifically says he took his account "from the twenty and four plates" of Ether, not a copy or a scroll or even from "records which contained the holy scriptures." And his account was the full account too, not to go forth to everyone.

Here's what he said, again:

Ether 1: 2

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

So the question remains... Where cometh or whence goeth the 24 plates translated by Moroni?

Link to comment

How is that a comparison?

The text doesn't say they burned plates, gold or copper or otherwise. The believers among the Ammonihahites were the poor, downtrodden class from an apostate group that separated themselves from the Nephites and the Church. Why would they have any of the original record?

Even if they did, what is the point? Moroni specifically says he took his account "from the twenty and four plates" of Ether, not a copy or a scroll or even from "records which contained the holy scriptures." And his account was the full account too, not to go forth to everyone.

Here's what he said, again:

Ether 1: 2

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

So the question remains... Where cometh or whence goeth the 24 plates translated by Moroni?

If you sincerely believe that your interpretation of this passage is the only reasonable one, then I welcome you to adhere to it. Just don't be surprised if you continue to run into lots of people who see things rather differently than you.

BTW, do you also believe that Joseph Smith translated a papyrus upon which Abraham himself had written with his own hand?

Link to comment

Well, if Moroni had said "I take mine account OF the twenty and four plates" instead, then I could see how if could be interpreted that way.

But that's not what he said.

William, as I see it, in addition to surmising Moroni was only using a translation of the Book of Ether, it would seem you are asking me to do the following:

To believe that Moroni didn't use the original 24 plates to translate the entire sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, roughly 2/3 more content than we currently have in the BoM.

To believe that Moroni had the interpreters, but didn't use them, instead relied on an old translation, even though he was commissioned to seal up the entire critical history of mankind, to come forth at the end of days.

To believe that Moroni, who tells us that Ether's words are 'overpowering' to read, would use a less powerful version for translation purposes, one written with "awkward" hands and as he put it, with the "stumble" of their words, instead of the more powerful original, in the adamic language.

To believe that Moroni, didn't mean he really translated from the 24 plates, even though he explicitly says so.

The only way I would need to believe such a scenario, would be if I bought into a Mesoamerican only LGT, that forced me into that corner after Mormon hid up all the other records. Since I don't, I can believe that Brigham wasn't hallucinating when he spoke of the room inside Cumorah with tons of records. I can believe that Moroni had access to this library, including all the other things he wrote about besides the Jaredite record. I can believe he had access to other plates and ore, after he said he wasn't going to write anymore and didn't have room. I can believe all the teachings of the prophets for the last 200 years without me second guessing them.

Call me crazy, call me a minority on this site, call me overbearing (sometimes I deserve it) but it's what I believe, quite strongly.

Cheers

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...