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Isaiah 49:25, 1 Nephi 21:25, 2 Nephi 6:17


nealr

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Both 1 Nephi 21:25 and 2 Nephi 6:17 are quotes from Isaiah 49:25. But the two BoM passages read differently, with one being identical to the KJV (1 Ne. 21:25) and the other being different (2 Ne. 6:17). I just proposed a solution to this discrepancy on my blog, at:

http://ldsreasonandrevelation.blogspot.com/2010/09/nephi-jacob-isaiah-and-dead-sea-scrolls.html#more

I would be interested in seeing what others think my idea, so please visit and let know what you think!

Thanks,

NealR

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I am not a scholar by any means.

It is an interesting idea, but as many of these ideas go, the faithful will think you are possibly right, and the critics will think otherwise.

But that is apologetics for you!

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Hi

Mosiah 1:3-4 indicates that the brass plates were written in Egyptian. Moroni somewhere bemoans how unclear their written language was. I can imagine that these verses could be read various ways from the brass plates because it was not concise writing system like we have today.

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Hi

Mosiah 1:3-4 indicates that the brass plates were written in Egyptian. Moroni somewhere bemoans how unclear their written language was. I can imagine that these verses could be read various ways from the brass plates because it was not concise writing system like we have today.

CFR that the plates were recorded in Egyptian as opposed to being WRITTEN in reformed Egyptian script.

CFR where Moroni states that his language is Egyptian.

CFR where Moroni bemoans the lack of clarity in the language.

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erichard, on 05 September 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

Hi

Mosiah 1:3-4 indicates that the brass plates were written in Egyptian. Moroni somewhere bemoans how unclear their written language was. I can imagine that these verses could be read various ways from the brass plates because it was not concise writing system like we have today.

CFR that the plates were recorded in Egyptian as opposed to being WRITTEN in reformed Egyptian script.

CFR where Moroni states that his language is Egyptian.

CFR where Moroni bemoans the lack of clarity in the language.

Spurven, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I do have references for your CFR's

Here is a reference for an inference that the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian.

Mosiah 1: 4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

However, the records that ht Nephites themselves kept were in "reformed Egyptian".

Mormon 9: 31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

Of course this was not Moroni, but Mormon writing these words. But in those three verses he is bemoaning the imperfections in the records, denoting that they are written in "reformed Egyptian", and stating that if the records could have been written in Hebrew, there would have been no imperfections, which is implying rather plainly that the reformed Egyptian was not ideal for keeping records, but was used because it was evidently a much more compressed form of writing than the Hebrew.

Glenn

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Both 1 Nephi 21:25 and 2 Nephi 6:17 are quotes from Isaiah 49:25. But the two BoM passages read differently, with one being identical to the KJV (1 Ne. 21:25) and the other being different (2 Ne. 6:17). I just proposed a solution to this discrepancy on my blog, at:

http://ldsreasonandrevelation.blogspot.com/2010/09/nephi-jacob-isaiah-and-dead-sea-scrolls.html#more

I would be interested in seeing what others think my idea, so please visit and let know what you think!

Thanks,

NealR

I think there is an altogether different explanation. In 2 Nephi 6:17, Jacob is not just quoting Isiah's prophecies. He is giving a prophecy of his own, but mingling a bit of Isaiah with it to give his prophecy greater authenticity. The added bits are parts of Jacob's own addition or commentary. He is interjecting those bits into his quotation of Isaiah to clarify and explain it.

The omitted bits are also part of the same phenomenon. The Hebrew Bible is not "versified" like the KJV. Jacob is quoting what he wants to quote, and leaves out what he wants to leave out. He is not quoting verbatim from Isaiah.

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Hi

Mosiah 1:3-4 indicates that the brass plates were written in Egyptian. Moroni somewhere bemoans how unclear their written language was. I can imagine that these verses could be read various ways from the brass plates because it was not concise writing system like we have today.

That is not a valid argument either. The full quote is as follows:

Moroni 9
:

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34
But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof
.

There are in fact no "imperfections" in the translated version of the Book of Mormon, because any "imperfections" that might have existed in the original will have been taken care of and rectified by the revelatory process through which the inspired translation was given. That is what Moroni 9:34 implies.

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There are in fact no "imperfections" in the translated version of the Book of Mormon, because any "imperfections" that might have existed in the original will have been taken care of and rectified by the revelatory process through which the inspired translation was given. That is what Moroni 9:34 implies.

Please define "imperfections," because the Church has never said that the BofM was perfect.

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That is what Moroni 9:34 implies.

Don't see it, think it's more of an inference than an implication.

I see it more likely implying that because no one knows their language it will have to be translated by miraculous means. There is nothing in that sentence that requires a lack of imperfections in that translation.

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Spurven, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I do have references for your CFR's

Here is a reference for an inference that the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian.

Mosiah 1: 4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

They were also written in Hebrew, 1 Ne 3:19. (I had a rather interesting discussion about this with an antimormon here

Anyway, since this is the record of Joseph, it is probable that the books of Moses were in egyptian, and the rest was in Hebrew. So Isaiah was in Hebrew. This explains why we have details about Joseph and his blessings that was not preserved in the record of Judah, which is our Old Testament Bible.

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Don't see it, think it's more of an inference than an implication.

I see it more likely implying that because no one knows their language it will have to be translated by miraculous means. There is nothing in that sentence that requires a lack of imperfections in that translation.

There is, but it requires a more than superficial acquaintance with the Book of Mormon to recognize it. The Book of Mormon prophets frequently repeat that their words will proceed out of the Lord

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Both 1 Nephi 21:25 and 2 Nephi 6:17 are quotes from Isaiah 49:25. But the two BoM passages read differently, with one being identical to the KJV (1 Ne. 21:25) and the other being different (2 Ne. 6:17). I just proposed a solution to this discrepancy on my blog, at:

NealR

Your solution completely ignores the fact that Isaiah 49:25 is speaking to Israel in Babylonian captivity and their coming liberation by Yahweh as written by Deutero-Isaiah post dating Nephi's departure from Jerusalem(and the brass plates) by a minimum of 60-80 years. Also ignores the fact and the fact that the BOM Isaiah is a word for word copy of the KJV with minor(but still dependent variants). You quote of Geza Vermes:

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