Jump to content

WOW! Hemespherical Model in 1840 (Never thunk'it)


Zakuska

Recommended Posts

So I've been perusing Uncle Dales site for the past couple weeks and I bumped into this lovely peace of Literature. It's got everything!

So we know for a fact that the full fledged (2 Personages, God and Jesus) 1st Vision story with Moroni later bringing the plates, was being taught by Mormon Missionaries not Later than 1840, so we are only looking at a period of 20 years. Thats a heck of a lot better than any of the stories we have in the Bible which were written 40-60+ Years after the fact.

Yes we do have Joseph's offical 1832 account as well which would mean that we only have a lapse of 12 years, and then theres the accounts of BY and OC in the 1830's. But this gives us a hard upper bound to work with, so we can work backwards and see the elements falling into place from here.

I was also intrested in the great detail Orson Pratt gives to the Hemespherical model. Jaredites landing in North America. Nephites landing on the western coast of South America. Mulekites landing in North America and spreading south across Meso-America into South America, running into the Nephites. The Ismus of Darien is mentioned several times. The Temple of Bountiful where Jesus came is located in Northern parts of South America. Hill Cumorah in NY. Ancestors of the Western Indian tribes are identified.

Remember Jaredites had Barley and Little Barley was being harvisted by Native Americans in North America since ~7000 BP. Well within the Jardite times. This would put the Jaredites right inline, laditudinally with the Elephant finds (Pygmy and otherwise [ie The reports of the mud slide trapped elephants with silver tusk rings and horses in Mexico] ) as well as Colorado Horses. So for Nephite horses we should be looking in South America. He also talks of Hagoth building his ship by the I. of Darien and launching to the north and shipping lumber southward.

There's a lot of infromation in this to keep the Imagination running for a long time! Thanks Uncle Dale!

http://olivercowdery...ts/Prat1840.htm

(PS. I know I spell horribly so don't even go there)

Link to comment

...

Thanks Uncle Dale!

...

Sigh!

I think I've created a monster upon the slab in my lab.

UD

Link to comment

So I've been perusing Uncle Dales site for the past couple weeks and I bumped into this lovely peace of Literature. It's got everything!

So we know for a fact that the full fledged (2 Personages, God and Jesus) 1st Vision story with Moroni later bringing the plates, was being taught by Mormon Missionaries not Later than 1840, so we are only looking at a period of 20 years. Thats a heck of a lot better than any of the stories we have in the Bible which were written 40-60+ Years after the fact.

Yes we do have Joseph's offical 1832 account as well which would mean that we only have a lapse of 12 years, and then theres the accounts of BY and OC in the 1830's. But this gives us a hard upper bound to work with, so we can work backwards and see the elements falling into place from here.

I was also intrested in the great detail Orson Pratt gives to the Hemespherical model. Jaredites landing in North America. Nephites landing on the western coast of South America. Mulekites landing in North America and spreading south across Meso-America into South America, running into the Nephites. The Ismus of Darien is mentioned several times. The Temple of Bountiful where Jesus came is located in Northern parts of South America. Hill Cumorah in NY. Ancestors of the Western Indian tribes are identified.

Remember Jaredites had Barley and Little Barley was being harvisted by Native Americans in North America since ~7000 BP. Well within the Jardite times. This would put the Jaredites right inline, laditudinally with the Elephant finds (Pygmy and otherwise [ie The reports of the mud slide trapped elephants with silver tusk rings and horses in Mexico] ) as well as Colorado Horses. So for Nephite horses we should be looking in South America. He also talks of Hagoth building his ship by the I. of Darien and launching to the north and shipping lumber southward.

There's a lot of infromation in this to keep the Imagination running for a long time! Thanks Uncle Dale!

http://olivercowdery...ts/Prat1840.htm

(PS. I know I spell horribly so don't even go there)

Good thing Theo does not post here

Link to comment

So I've been perusing Uncle Dales site for the past couple weeks and I bumped into this lovely peace of Literature. It's got everything!

So we know for a fact that the full fledged (2 Personages, God and Jesus) 1st Vision story with Moroni later bringing the plates, was being taught by Mormon Missionaries not Later than 1840, so we are only looking at a period of 20 years. Thats a heck of a lot better than any of the stories we have in the Bible which were written 40-60+ Years after the fact.

Why wasn't the 2 "personages" first vision story taught that way from day one? The problem with it having different versions is that it appears that the story changed over time. Why would he change it? I think a person tells a story to meet a certain need - Joseph's need was to get people to rally behind him. I say this over and over again but nobody seems to understand the implications: Joseph benefited from Mormonism financially, socially, politically and romantically. His whole temporal state of being depended on Mormonism becoming a force in the world. You'll notice how his story changed and he used each and every new detail to reinforce his influence over his followers. He *might* have seen things, and *might* have overlooked that small itty bitty bit about God AND Jesus visiting him until he had it written down again in 1838. He also might have made his story more incredible as a way to rebuild support over the gullible. I think we LDS rarely get the opportunity to consider Joseph's ambitions and personal motivations sufficiently before formulating our testimonies. Going back to the 'first' vision story -- If he just told the same, consistent story since day one it wouldn't be an issue but would be point to always bring up: "Joseph told the same consistent, unchanging story since day one. He never varied his statements, he never said at first it was an angel, and then it was Jesus and THEN it was both God AND Jesus. That's strong evidence that he's reliable and consistent, not some shapeshifting changeling whose statements shift like reeds in the wind."

Yes we do have Joseph's offical 1832 account as well which would mean that we only have a lapse of 12 years, and then theres the accounts of BY and OC in the 1830's. But this gives us a hard upper bound to work with, so we can work backwards and see the elements falling into place from here.

I was also intrested in the great detail Orson Pratt gives to the Hemespherical model. Jaredites landing in North America. Nephites landing on the western coast of South America. Mulekites landing in North America and spreading south across Meso-America into South America, running into the Nephites. The Ismus of Darien is mentioned several times. The Temple of Bountiful where Jesus came is located in Northern parts of South America. Hill Cumorah in NY. Ancestors of the Western Indian tribes are identified.

Yes, this is the model the Church taught us growing up, quoting Apostle Pratt among other leaders. They also taught us that God could not lead the Church astray (quoting Heber J. Grant). IF the Semitic Nephites & Mulekites spread all over the face of the land we should find lots of DNA evidence. We don't have to know Lehi's DNA, we just need to know the haplogroup he belonged to and find that haplogroup spread all over the New World aligning with the model put forth by our inspired leaders.

Remember Jaredites had Barley and Little Barley was being harvisted by Native Americans in North America since ~7000 BP. Well within the Jardite times. This would put the Jaredites right inline, laditudinally with the Elephant finds (Pygmy and otherwise [ie The reports of the mud slide trapped elephants with silver tusk rings and horses in Mexico] ) as well as Colorado Horses. So for Nephite horses we should be looking in South America. He also talks of Hagoth building his ship by the I. of Darien and launching to the north and shipping lumber southward.

There's a lot of infromation in this to keep the Imagination running for a long time! Thanks Uncle Dale!

http://olivercowdery...ts/Prat1840.htm

(PS. I know I spell horribly so don't even go there)

Wasn't the barley found in some pot in Arizona? Is Arizona a likely candidate for Jaredite civilization? What other multiple collaborative pieces complement the jar of barley? Jaredites also used steel swords -- any steel swords located in Arizona? Has the Land of Desolation been found in AZ? How about anecdotes among the natives regarding coming across the ocean in 7 or 8 barges with the hole in the top & bottom? How about anecdotes of God separating out all

Isn't 7000 BCE long before the ambitious Middle Eastern construction project known as the Tower of Babel, which kindled God's anger to the point that He intervened inside the minds of every person, changing their native language causing them to emigrate all over the world to avoid listening to all the nonsensical babbling (if we're all just computer constructs all He would have to do is associate a different language library to each object and reinitialize the table -- could happen just like *that*? If you're looking for Jaredites you should find the time for the Tower of Babel and match it up with that, otherwise it's coincidence. And we do have two books -- Book of Mormon and Bible -- which independently tell us that such a Tower was built and such a punishment was laid upon the people.

What's this about silver rings found with elephant remains? And "Colorado horses"? What has the scientific world said of such things?

Link to comment

Why wasn't the 2 "personages" first vision story taught that way from day one?

Line upon line. After 1500 years absence, you can't just reintroduce a doctrine like that whilly nilly.

Imagine the most sober 14 year old boy you know confiding in you that he had prayed, and in answer to his prayer he was visited by God and God looked drastically different than you and he had previously suspected. That could be pretty disturbing, and might discourage you from listening to the other important things the boy had to tell you.

Link to comment

I was also intrested in the great detail Orson Pratt gives to the Hemespherical model. Jaredites landing in North America. Nephites landing on the western coast of South America. Mulekites landing in North America and spreading south across Meso-America into South America, running into the Nephites. The Ismus of Darien is mentioned several times. The Temple of Bountiful where Jesus came is located in Northern parts of South America. Hill Cumorah in NY. Ancestors of the Western Indian tribes are identified.

In order to get some idea of the prevailing concepts about BofM geography, I have been reading the LDS newspaper, Times and Seasons" published in Nauvoo in the years just before the exodus to the west.

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/

The following issues have articles related to the early saints view of BofM geography.

Vol. 2. 18.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. July 15th, 1841 [Whole No. 30

Vol. 3. No. 5.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. JAN. 1, 1842 .[Whole No. 41

Vol. III. No. 6.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. JAN. 15, 1842. [Whole No. 42

Vol. III. No. 13] . CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL,. MAY 2, 1842 [Whole No. 49

Vol. III. No. 16.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. JUNE 15, 1842. [Whole No. 52

These excerpts only cover the first three volumes but show a clear pattern of hemispheric geography.

The first one listed is my favourite because it shows that not only the mormons were interested in the ruins found in Mesoamerica but so were nonmembers.

Vol. 2. 18.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. July 15th, 1841 [Whole No. 30

Mr. M. I have always thought that there had been a more enlightened people on this continent, than the present Indians. The remains of ancient buildings, monuments &c., are evident proofs on this point

Mr. R. There can be no doubt on this subject. In the recent researches in Central America, the ruins of very large and splendid buildings have been found, but it does not necessarily follow that the Book of Mormon is true.

Elder P. By no means, but you will undoubtedly admit that it is circumstancial [circumstantial]

Larry P

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...