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What became of the Nephites....


hagoth7

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Based on your understanding of Jacob 5:

1) What, if anything, does that chapter suggest about modern Jews and

2) What, if anything, does that chapter foretell about the fate of the Nephite people?

(Please state your belief, and cite specific verses to support your interpretation.)

Thanks in advance.

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Based on your understanding of Jacob 5:

1) What, if anything, does that chapter suggest about modern Jews and

2) What, if anything, does that chapter foretell about the fate of the Nephite people?

(Please state your belief, and cite specific verses to support your interpretation.)

Thanks in advance.

#2 is much easier to answer than #1, as much of the chapter focuses on the gathering of Israel in the last days. But I'll take a shot at #2. I love this allegory, and I believe that Zenos knew of the complete Nephite destruction at the hand of the Lamanites, otherwise the branch would not only have had bad fruit, but would not have withered away and died having been 'overcome' by the Lamanite branch.

Here's my take on the Nephite, Lamanite and Jaredite mentions in the allegory.

40 And the wild fruit of the last (Lamanite) had overcome that part of the tree which brought forth good fruit, even that the branch had withered away and died. (Nephite)

41 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?

42 Behold, I knew that all the fruit of the vineyard, save it were these, had become corrupted. And now these which have once brought forth good fruit have also become corrupted; and now all the trees of my vineyard are good for nothing save it be to be hewn down and cast into the fire.

43 And behold this last, whose branch hath withered away, (Nephite) I did plant in a good spot of ground; yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard. (Americas)

44 And thou beheldest that I also cut down that which cumbered this spot of ground, (Jaredites) that I might plant this tree (Lehites) in the stead thereof. (notice no grafting in to existing civilizations like the rest of the Israel branches, but he did "plant" a new "tree".)

45 And thou beheldest that a part thereof brought forth good fruit, (Nephite) and a part thereof brought forth wild fruit; (Lamanite) and because I plucked not the branches thereof and cast them into the fire, behold, they have overcome the good branch that it hath withered away. (Nephite)

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...I love this allegory, and I believe that Zenos knew of the complete Nephite destruction at the hand of the Lamanites...

Hi Seven,

I agree that Zenos knew quite a bit. But I don't agree Zenos foretold the complete Nephite destruction.

On the contrary, I believe he foretold quite the opposite - in the context of surviving branches, and those branches being brought back to their land(s) of promise.

Elsewhere we're told that Zenos spoke:

"...concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel...."

I intend to comment on some of the Jacob 5 verses a bit later.

In the meantime, thoughts?

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Hi Seven,

I agree that Zenos knew quite a bit. But I don't agree Zenos foretold the complete Nephite destruction.

On the contrary, I believe he foretold quite the opposite - in the context of surviving branches, and those branches being brought back to their land(s) of promise.

Elsewhere we're told that Zenos spoke:

"...concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel...."

I intend to comment on some of the Jacob 5 verses a bit later.

In the meantime, thoughts?

I think Jacob speaks to this directly in 2 Nephi. He's not talking about the Nephites, but other tribes the Father has led away "from time to time".

2 Nephi 10:

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

22 For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also.

BTW, I've always had a hope that the words of Zenos would be discovered somewhere in the old world, fulfilling the law of witnesses.

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I think Jacob speaks to this directly in 2 Nephi. He's not talking about the Nephites... 2 Nephi 10:

I respectfully beg to differ.

The very chapter you cite foretolds the restoration of God's peoples back to their lands (plural) of inheritance. (Apparently as part of being grafted back in.)

The questions are:

1) Where would that grafting occur (which lands would see such a restoration?), and

2) When would such a grafting occur.

An answer is suggested in 3rd Nephi (29), where we are promised:

1 And now behold, I say unto you that when the Lord shall see fit, in his wisdom, that these sayings shall come unto the Gentiles according to his word, then ye may know that the covenant which the Father hath made with the children of Israel, concerning their restoration to the lands of their inheritance, is already beginning to be fulfilled.

2 And ye may know that the words of the Lord, which have been spoken by the holy prophets, shall all be fulfilled; and ye need not say that the Lord delays his coming unto the children of Israel.

3 And ye need not imagine in your hearts that the words which have been spoken are vain, for behold, the Lord will remember his covenant which he hath made unto his people of the house of Israel.

Implied answers:

Answer #1) Place of restoration to their land of inheritance: the Americas (and Palestine)

Answer #2) Time of such restoration/grafting: beginning to be fulfilled in 1830

? Who was being transplanted to the Americas during that era - and what does such a reality suggest about Nephite survivors / heritage?

What are the implications of known 19th-century migration patterns?

As you cited:

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

22 For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also.

Amen.

Among those broken off were the Nephite escape pods under Hagoth that jettisoned 60 years before Christ.

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90+ years after their departure, Christ affirmed that he would visit them too.

In that vein, I intend to refer in some detail to the route of visitations foretold in Jacob 5.

BTW, I've always had a hope that the words of Zenos would be discovered somewhere in the old world, fulfilling the law of witnesses.

I believe to some degree his words have been affirmed via the law of witnesses.

People in the isles of the sea did see (and even report) three days of darkness - as Zenos foretold they would.

The Nephite record's purpose "is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers..."

Translation: Branches survived.

(hopefully back to Jacob 5 soon)

Thoughts?

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2) What, if anything, does that chapter foretell about the fate of the Nephite people?

(Please state your belief, and cite specific verses to support your interpretation.)

Early in the allegory, the Lord makes it quite clear of his love and concern for Israel. Tending to it, nourishing it, pruning it, digging about it.

Then, when part of it started to die:

6 And it came to pass that after many days it began to put forth somewhat a little, young and tender branches; but behold, the main atop thereof began to perish.

7 And it came to pass that the master of the vineyard saw it, and he said unto his servant: It grieveth me that I should lose this tree; wherefore, go and pluck the branches from a wild olive-tree, and bring them hither unto me; and we will pluck off those main branches which are beginning to wither away, and we will cast them into the fire that they may be burned.

8 And behold, saith the Lord of the vineyard, I take away many of these young and tender branches, and I will graft them whithersoever I will; and it mattereth not that if it so be that the root of this tree will perish, I may preserve the fruit thereof unto myself; wherefore, I will take these young and tender branches, and I will graft them whithersoever I will.

And Seven cited a parallel passage from 2 Nephi 10:

For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure...

If the Lord has such compassion to preserve his people, what then of the Nephites?

Are they somehow the exception?

What do subsequent verses of Jacob 5 suggest, in the context of promises made to Abraham and others?

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Lehi foretold the destruction of Jerusalem.

It was fulfilled.

However, thousands of the people were spared.

Centuries later, Christ foretold yet another destruction of Jerusalem.

It was of course also fulfilled.

Yet, thousands of the people were spared.

What then of the Nephites? And their "destruction"?

13 And these will I place in the nethermost part of my vineyard, whithersoever I will, it mattereth not unto thee; and I do it that I may preserve unto myself the natural branches of the tree; and also, that I may lay up fruit thereof against the season, unto myself; for it grieveth me that I should lose this tree and the fruit thereof.

14 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard went his way, and hid the natural branches of the tame olive-tree in the nethermost parts of the vineyard, some in one and some in another, according to his will and pleasure.

15 And it came to pass that a long time passed away, and the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: Come, let us go down into the vineyard, that we may labor in the vineyard.

As confirmation that other transplants had survived, in 3 Nephi, when Christ came to labor among the American Nephites, he told them that he still had other sheep. And he was leaving soon to visit them too.

And after explaining the latter-day consequences of all that, Christ said:

I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time.

Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.

But now I ago unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

So based on Jacob 5, what happened to the Nephites?

And what would eventually happen?

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