Water, blood, spirit

[mercyngrace]

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Anyone read anything about the three elements mentioned in the birth process as symbolizing the members of the Godhead and their respective functions? Or am I totally off base here?

God the Father - water (the law) - He exalts us through our being able to abide the celestial law

God the Son - blood - He justifies us (we must pass through the portal of His flesh and blood in order to meet the demands of the law - passover/the veil)

God the Holy Ghost - spirit - He sanctifies us (he quickens us to the level of the law we abide and testifies of our worthiness as we approach the Son)

If this makes any sense, can you think of verses or stories from the scripture that would have a more significant meaning by replacing the symbol of water, blood, spirit with what they symbolize?

edit: Just wanted to add that I know justify and sanctify are used in these verses and others somewhat interchangeably but I think D&C 88 clarifies the role of the HG as sanctifying and that D&C 76 assigns justifying to the Savior which is why I wrote them as I did.

[handys003]

Anyone read anything about the three elements mentioned in the birth process as symbolizing the members of the Godhead and their respective functions? Or am I totally off base here?

God the Father - water (the law) - He exalts us through our being able to abide the celestial law

God the Son - blood - He justifies us (we must pass through the portal of His flesh and blood in order to meet the demands of the law - passover/the veil)

God the Holy Ghost - spirit - He sanctifies us (he quickens us to the level of the law we abide and testifies of our worthiness as we approach the Son)

If this makes any sense, can you think of verses or stories from the scripture that would have a more significant meaning by replacing the symbol of water, blood, spirit with what they symbolize?

I never gave it much thought until now. I also consider birth and baptism as a renewal, but not attributed to the Godhead in that way. I like it! Figures it would take a MOM to put the pieces to together. Your so Akamai (smart) MG.

[mercyngrace]

I never gave it much thought until now. I also consider birth and baptism as a renewal, but not attributed to the Godhead in that way. I like it! Figures it would take a MOM to put the pieces to together. Your so Akamai (smart) MG.

Thanks Handys

Seems like most of what I find on lds.org equates justification and sanctification but I think there is a subtle difference. Justification makes our salvation just. It meets the demands of the law. Only Christ can do that. Sanctification is the purifying process of the baptism by fire by a testator who can bear witness that we are worthy. That's definitely a function of the HG, which is why we are warned not to offend Him with our waywardness, lest He depart.

Still both processes are preparatory to exaltation and involve cleansing from sin - though in one case there is covering and in another purging.

[selek]

Interesting, too, that the symbolism of the baptism has us immersed in water (death) and then reborn.

For just as the law exalts us when it is kept- it condemns us as we fail.

It's also interesting that either Christ himself (or one of his prophets) sent a man to wash in a particular river seven times to be cleansed and healed (of leprosy? My memory's shot tonight).

The man complained that one river was as good as another and was angry when he was not healed.

His servant (IIRC) chided him for not obeying the commandment and becoming angry when he didn't get what he wanted.

Apparently one river (law) is NOT as good as another!

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

John speaks of this too but nowhere near as detailed. It also disproves the notion of the Godhead according to the Nicene Creed.

I have heard this analogy too:

Water: Baptism

Spirit: Confirmation (Gift of the Holy Ghost)

Blood: Sacrament (given that we partake of the symbol of Christ's blood)

[mercyngrace]

Interesting, too, that the symbolism of the baptism has us immersed in water (death) and then reborn.

For just as the law exalts us when it is kept- it condemns us as we fail.

It's also interesting that either Christ himself (or one of his prophets) sent a man to wash in a particular river seven times to be cleansed and healed (of leprosy? My memory's shot tonight).

The man complained that one river was as good as another and was angry when he was not healed.

His servant (IIRC) chided him for not obeying the commandment and becoming angry when he didn't get what he wanted.

Apparently one river (law) is NOT as good as another!

Naaman. The foootnotes even refer to baptism. He was approaching God through the covenant, not just being healed.

[selek]

Naaman. The foootnotes even refer to baptism. He was approaching God through the covenant, not just being healed.

Show off.....

Told you my memory was shot tonight .

Excellent topic, though- and one I'd very much like to see developed further.

[mercyngrace]

Show off.....

Told you my memory was shot tonight .

Excellent topic, though- and one I'd very much like to see developed further.

We just had that lesson in GD 2 weeks ago and I mentioned the approaching God stuff but I'm not sure I was quite as coherent off the cuff. I'm just glad you guys can figure out all my rambling.

[handys003]

We just had that lesson in GD 2 weeks ago and I mentioned the approaching God stuff but I'm not sure I was quite as coherent off the cuff. I'm just glad you guys can figure out all my rambling.

I just tried explaining your concept to my poor befuddled wife. It went way over her head. She was associating the parallel of equating blood out of the womb as disgusting and mixing with Christ. You may get the same reaction. IMO I think others like my wife who doesn't sit ,and contemplate such things in depth in their routine in life, you might get some negative reactions. I assume you are prepared for such?

[mercyngrace]

I just tried explaining your concept to my poor befuddled wife. It went way over her head. She was associating the parallel of equating blood out of the womb as disgusting and mixing with Christ. You may get the same reaction. IMO I think others like my wife who doesn't sit ,and contemplate such things in depth in their routine in life, you might get some negative reactions. I assume you are prepared for such?

Ooh that does sound horrific!

The important thing about symbols is... they're symbolic!

I was actually thinking this concept supported the "two trees" idea shared by Valerie Hudson-Cassler at the FAIR conference. She ta;led about two trees that opened two veils, one into this world from out Heavenly home and the other back into that home from mortality. Those veils are the births described in Moses 6.

We are born into mortality in blood, water, and spirit.

We are born into eternal life through the atonement, the law, and the quickening (blood, water, spirit).

Two trees, two veils, two births.

edit for clarification: Just as V.H.-C. suggested, women govern the first birth and men the second.

[Mudcat]

John speaks of this too but nowhere near as detailed. It also disproves the notion of the Godhead according to the Nicene Creed.

I have heard this analogy too:

Water: Baptism

Spirit: Confirmation (Gift of the Holy Ghost)

Blood: Sacrament (given that we partake of the symbol of Christ's blood)

At least in respect the words attributed to John, though some were an apparent later addition to the text, Trinitarians like myself would argue that such statements are affirming of the Trinity. There are two aspects to be understood. God is one and God is also three persons. Statements like John's affirm "three persons". It's such concepts that help to prevent heresies like modalism from creeping in to Trinitarian understandings, IMO.

[LeSellers]

Blood: Sacrament (given that we partake of the symbol of Christ's blood)

I don't believe this is as useful as it might be. Here are a few scriptures:

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.

I believe these refer to baptism.

Lehi

[mercyngrace]

I don't believe this is as useful as it might be. Here are a few scriptures:

I believe these refer to baptism.

Lehi

Washing is used as imagery for all three symbols. The quickening process is also know as a BAPTISM by fire.

Not to mention Nephi's explanation that Christ was baptized to fulfil all righteousness (i.e. to keep the celestial law).

[CV75]

stories from the scripture that would have a more significant meaning by replacing the symbol of water, blood, spirit with what they symbolize

One story that was discussed on this board some ago which brings out the three elements is the story of the Jaredites crossing the ocean in barges with a miraculous source of light: In this example, we have blood in the human cargo, water in the sea, spirit in the shining stones, and traveling from a lesser kingdom to a promised land to live free according to these covenants.

This links back to John 1 Chapter 5 (especially verses 5

[mercyngrace]

One story that was discussed on this board some ago which brings out the three elements is the story of the Jaredites crossing the ocean in barges with a miraculous source of light: In this example, we have blood in the human cargo, water in the sea, spirit in the shining stones, and traveling from a lesser kingdom to a promised land to live free according to these covenants.

This links back to John 1 Chapter 5 (especially verses 5

[handys003]

Ooh that does sound horrific!

The important thing about symbols is... they're symbolic!

I was actually thinking this concept supported the "two trees" idea shared by Valerie Hudson-Cassler at the FAIR conference. She ta;led about two trees that opened two veils, one into this world from out Heavenly home and the other back into that home from mortality. Those veils are the births described in Moses 6.

We are born into mortality in blood, water, and spirit.

We are born into eternal life through the atonement, the law, and the quickening (blood, water, spirit).

Two trees, two veils, two births.

edit for clarification: Just as V.H.-C. suggested, women govern the first birth and men the second.

Thanks for the sympathy, but don't fret. I was concerned of your symbolism going over the head as there are quite a few in church who are not studious. The two trees topic went over my wifes head as well. I love her though but it's aggravating when someone closes their mind to an analogy without trying to understand. Know what I mean? I just think your going to get the same blank looks. Your gonna have to go in a more roundabout way of presenting such.

[mercyngrace]

Thanks for the sympathy, but don't fret. I was concerned of your symbolism going over the head as there are quite a few in church who are not studious. The two trees topic went over my wifes head as well. I love her though but it's aggravating when someone closes their mind to an analogy without trying to understand. Know what I mean? I just think your going to get the same blank looks. Your gonna have to go in a more roundabout way of presenting such.

I doubt there's be any natural tie-in to this from a lesson in church

But... I was in the temple last night doing initiatories and all three symbols were mentioned. I got very distracted listening to see if they were representations of something more. Hmmm.