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Will Schryver on the KEP

Brent Metcalfe

By Brent Metcalfe
in School of the Pundits

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Mortal Man Community Regular

Mortal Man

Posted
Posted

I don't see why it's not any more probable that Joseph Smith simply inspired Phelps to pursue the cipher largely on his own initiative. He seems to have taken the lead, even if Smith introduced him to the ideas to begin with.

What exactly is this based on Dan? The fact that most of the manuscripts are in his handwriting? Should we then assume that Cowdery took the lead on the BoM?

Numerous witnesses attested Smith's "translating" capabilities. Where are the references to Phelps' "translating" abilities?

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Zeta-Flux Proficient

Zeta-Flux

Posted
Posted

So W. W. Phelps was <<engaged in some kind of construction of a 'pure language'>>? Ben seems unsure as to where Phelps got such an idea, and Will appears to share Ben's befuddlement.

Befuddlement? I didn't see that at all in the videos I watched. I saw caution. But then again, I wasn't present. But even if William shares in some befuddlement, that hardly seems damning.
Those familiar with the relevant evidentiary sources look to Joseph Smith
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gtaggart Experienced

gtaggart

Posted
Posted

All this is beside the point: Brent, publish your critical text of the KEP, or if you'd rather, write up your criticisms of Will's presentation and publish that. In short, stick your neck out instead of your finger. Your drib, drab, hints, and teasers approach to message board debate--captured perfectly in the last sentence of your opening post ("This is just one among numerous factual issues I have with Will's speculations") isn't working anymore, certainly not with me anyway. Numerous? For what it's worth, I'm not sitting at my computer, silly with excitement in anticipation of your next post, my breath bated; I'm rolling my eyes.

Also, for what it's worth, ditto to what maklelan and Zeta-Flux wrote.

"Bitterly" yours and in anxious anticipation of your critical text :P ,

Greg

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gtaggart Experienced

gtaggart

Posted
Posted

Brent writes:There is no befuddlement at all. The question of where he got the idea isn't a question asked in some kind of vacuum. The question is one of a specific source (which I believe could be and perhaps even will be eventually determined). There were in fact a number of people speculating on the idea of a "pure language". The term "pure language" is taken directly from the KJV of the Bible (Zeph. 3:9). But, its application to projects like this is well known. So here is an excerpt from a letter written by a school teacher in New Lebanon, New York, named Seth Y. Wells, dated June 4th, 1832, written to a Michael H. Barton (the author of the book I am quoting from):

While Phelps may have been boarding with Joseph Smith, his connection to Joseph seems to be much more significant and longstanding - particular dealing with this issue. So, for example, we have the arguments raised by Sam Brown in his articles

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maklelan Experienced

maklelan

Posted
Posted

What exactly is this based on Dan? The fact that most of the manuscripts are in his handwriting? Should we then assume that Cowdery took the lead on the BoM?

We have texts that explain what Cowdery is doing. We don't have texts explaining that Phelps was simply writing down Smith's orders at this point. We can't simply assume that every text in Phelps' hand is something Smith dictated or ordered. Given his clear interest in the project manifested in his letter to his wife, and his revealing the D&C code names and other ciphers in another letter from years after Smith's death, I think it's clear his interest in these ciphers was deep. While the probability that Phelps' is the hand at the KEP wheel does not overwhelm the probability that Smith was behind it all, I think the former must be the greater probability.

Numerous witnesses attested Smith's "translating" capabilities. Where are the references to Phelps' "translating" abilities?

Smith's capabilities were lauded because he published several putative translations that were adopted as scripture by the church. The KEP was never widely known, completed, or published. Your point is irrelevant.

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e=mc2 Proficient

e=mc2

Posted
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Ben McGuire noted, in response to what B. Metcalfe mentioned:

While Phelps may have been boarding with Joseph Smith, his connection to Joseph seems to be much more significant and longstanding - particular dealing with this issue.

Kerry notes further.

The interesting thing for me, because, now I am a Master Mason, is that Phelps' connection here with Smith is as well in Masonic directions (Will's examples of Masonic ciphers is simply delightful, for me, personally), because Phelps was an anti-Mason. He surely felt no problem at all in spilling his beans to the Prophet on things Masonic. He was no longer under obligation to remain silent or prudent. In fact, it explains, interestingly enough, why Phelps so very quickly on becoming a Mormon, was put into the publishing arm of the fledgling church. He could easily demonstrate he was authoring not one, but *two* anti-Masonic periodicals. He had the skills, and Joseph immediately put him to work on publishing items for the church. Yet again, another Masonic connection, and now, of all things, possibly revealed in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. Wow. The influence appears to me to be growing, and that a Masonic connection, and ciphers in the KEP have now come out as possibilities, there is room for further research, which, of course, I am so all over right now.......Fun stuff, Will has really opened up some ideas for all of us here.

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Benjamin McGuire Veteran

Benjamin McGuire

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Mortal Man writes:

Numerous witnesses attested Smith's "translating" capabilities. Where are the references to Phelps' "translating" abilities?
Generally speaking, Sam Brown lays these out in his paper: "The Voice of Truth: the Translator and the Ghostwriter". Take for example, from his paper, the reference in E.D. Howe's Mormonism Unveiled (p. 274) - speaking of Phelps:
Before the rise of Mormonism, he was an avowed infidel; having remarkable propensity for fame and eminence, he was supercilious, haughty and egotistical. His great ambition was to embark in some speculation where he could shine pre-eminent. He took an active part for several years in the political contests of New York, and made no little display as an editor of a partizan newspaper, and after being foiled in his desires to become a candidate for Lt. Governor of that state, his attention w suddenly diverted by the prospects which were held out to him in the Gold Bible speculation. In this he was sure of becoming a great man, and made the dupes believe he was master of fourteen different languages, of which they frequently boasted.

This isn't really "translating" but it certainly would seem to fit into Phelp's linguistic interests.

Ben M.

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e=mc2 Proficient

e=mc2

Posted
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Mortal Man writes:Generally speaking, Sam Brown lays these out in his paper: "The Voice of Truth: the Translator and the Ghostwriter". Take for example, from his paper, the reference in E.D. Howe's Mormonism Unveiled (p. 274) - speaking of Phelps:

This isn't really "translating" but it certainly would seem to fit into Phelp's linguistic interests.

Ben M.

This is a ***GREAT*** find Ben!

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