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The history of metallurgy in Mesoamerica


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I do a little freelance writing, one of the new assignments that came up was "The history of metallurgy in Mesoamerica"

Can anyone here post some nice archeolgy links/finds? what year was nephite coinage used? or was it used? swords - is everyone still going with the non-metal sword idea? what is the earliest use of metal / earliest mesoamerican finds?

what did they use to carve in pictures in rocks etc. etc. ?

Thanks!

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Remember, the article is about METALLurgy....obsidian-spiked-clubs need not be mentioned. Also you'll notice that even though the Book of Mormon itself doesn't mention "coinage" other than a modern interpolation, the objects in question were gold and silver -- metals to be sure. The sword of Laban was a steel sword with a gold hilt --

9 And I beheld his asword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

http://scriptures.ld.../4/9,18-19,21#9

Nephi was supposedly skilled in metallurgy because he pulled ore out of the Earth in Arabia and made his own set of tools to build his ship.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make atools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me? 10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools. 11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to ablow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire. 12 For the Lord had not hitherto suffered that we should make much fire, as we journeyed in the wilderness; for he said: I will make thy food become sweet, that ye acook it not; 13 And I will also be your alight in the wilderness; and I will prepare the way before you, if it so be that ye shall keep my commandments; wherefore, inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall be led towards the bpromised land; and ye shall cknow that it is by me that ye are led. 14 Yea, and the Lord said also that: After ye have arrived in the promised land, ye shall aknow that I, the Lord, am bGod; and that I, the Lord, did cdeliver you from destruction; yea, that I did bring you out of the land of Jerusalem. 15 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did strive to keep the acommandments of the Lord, and I did bexhort my brethren to faithfulness and diligence. 16 And it came to pass that I did a<a title="TG Skill." mark="a" type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/17/16a">make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/17/9-10,16#9

Nephi also took his stolen sword of Laban after the separation of Nephites & Lamanites and fashed swords after the manner of Laban's sword. You'll also notice that Nephi mentioned all the various metals that were in great abundance (this is just sentences before he mentions having built a temple after the manner of the Temple of Solomon). So not only was there a skilled blacksmith (Nephi) but affirmative statements on what was available -- gold, silver and copper--

25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were abeasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of bore, both of cgold, and of silver, and of copper.

http://scriptures.ld...g/en/1_ne/18#25

Makes you wonder, with the knowledge Nephi had of working ore, of identifying ore, of having a steel & gold sword in his hand why he would have any difficulty at all in reproducing Laban's steel sword as a metal sword?

http://scriptures.ld...en/2_ne/5/14#14 14 And I, Nephi, did take the asword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many bswords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their chatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

You'll notice from the Book of Mormon that the words "obsidian" or "glass-edged-club" or "macuahitl" do not appear at all.

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You'll notice from the Book of Mormon that the words "obsidian" or "glass-edged-club" or "macuahitl" do not appear at all.

But the word rust certainly does, as does iron. Personally, I've never seen obsidian rust.

You might find this book helpful.

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Looks like an interesting book... but it isn't posted online? you have to buy it?

I know the iron age came much later than the copper/bronze age because of the melting point of iron - you have to know how to use bellows etc. etc. Some iron was used that came from meteorites - but it was rare/precious metal. There are some types of iron ore which can be refined over a campfire - like the old world find... there's stainless steel vs. cast iron - any iron they had would not be the best quality imo.

Copper is pretty easy to get, but not as strong.

It used to be, with lots of pics, artifacts, etc. The links are dead now, looks like he finally got it published.

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Nephi also took his stolen sword of Laban after the separation of Nephites & Lamanites and fashed swords after the manner of Laban's sword.

The swords fashioned in the manner of Laban's sword could still be have obsidian and still be in the manner of Labans sword because the blade was not metal does not make it less a sword.

You'll also notice that Nephi mentioned all the various metals that were in great abundance (this is just sentences before he mentions having built a temple after the manner of the Temple of Solomon). So not only was there a skilled blacksmith (Nephi) but affirmative statements on what was available -- gold, silver and copper--
I have no problem with this.
Makes you wonder, with the knowledge Nephi had of working ore, of identifying ore, of having a steel & gold sword in his hand why he would have any difficulty at all in reproducing Laban's steel sword as a metal sword?
You are reading too much into this especially in the "steel sword." As I mentioned before the swords Nephi made did not have to be made of steel to be "in the manner of..." When I see the word "manner of" to me that does not mean a precise replica or even close to it. There is much evidence of obsidian edged swords. These swords would BTW could be stained with blood as the BofM states they did, the steel sword of Laban would not be. So that in its self show that the swords were in "the manner of" but there is a difference that one could be stained with and the other could not (hence not necessarily a steel sword).
You'll notice from the Book of Mormon that the words "obsidian" or "glass-edged-club" or "macuahitl" do not appear at all.
And why should they? The translation loses nothing of the word "sword" nor in "the manner of." Simply put swords were made in Mesoamerica that matched the sword of Laban. If Nephi was so great at identifying metals and precious steel and exceedingly craftsmanship (I think he was) he used these terms to identify the sword of Laban but never for any other. He made them in the manner of Labans sword but does not describe them the same way as he did the sword of Laban other than they were in the manner of Labans..
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The problem is that most scholars know how to do research and that is all.

You gotta go to guys who know how to do things who never went to school to understand how easy it would have been for Nephi to make steel swords, ONCE HE HAD SEEN THE TECHNIQUES.

You don't need a library, you just youtube.

The reason Joseph knew that having steel swords was not an anachronism is that he saw blacksmiths working every day. Unfortunately we take the word of the scholars who say it couldn't be done. That is hogwash.

Of course the definition of "steel" here is the issue; to me the issue is not the metallurgy. Joseph used the word steel because he was familiary with it.

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Are you inquiring in terms of gold an silver? The Dallas Museum of Art has a huge collection of Ancient American Art both in ceramic and metals. Nothing in the weapons class. However they did have some gold plated armor tunics. I don't think the curator of Ancient American Art that I worked with is no longer there. That was around 25+ years ago. Man I can't believe how time flies since I worked there. Here is a link to their website. You can visit the section entitled Ancient American Art. You call them they might be able to put you in touch with the current department head, and they can give you resources.

http://dallasmuseumo...ections/Objects

This site below has more of weapons for viewing, and I'm sure they can give you more resources including other metals instead of gold and silver if you contact them.

http://precolumbianartifact.com/

Here is another link to iron age America including furnaces in the Great Lakes region. Looks like you have to buy to get more in depth on the subject.

http://ironageamerica.com/

Have fun!

Edit: IMO on the site with weapons it shows lack of metal swords, but does have plenty of metal knives, axes, spears. It may be that obsidian could be the more preferred sword. I have seen and felt how sharp it is. In fact I even shaved with it. It is just as sharp as a razor and feels even more sharp than metal. Hawaiians used shark teeth sewn into wood shaped as cutting instruments. In fact I would place obsidian and shark teeth over razors for sharpness. Both don't decay or rust at the rate metal does.

Edit: In fact not to derail, but it is more evidence that Polynesians didn't settle in the Americas. We should find evidence of such Polynesian tools with shark teeth. East to West migration theory my okole!

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You'll notice from the Book of Mormon that the words "obsidian" or "glass-edged-club" or "macuahitl" do not appear at all.

Geeze, Doug, putting letters in a differnt font and color is annoying.

BTW, we went over all this in another thread. No one bothered to respond to my analysis of seeing guns like unto a Glock 17 or an AK 47.

Remember like unto is not the same as replica. That is what you think like unto means.

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Remember, the article is about METALLurgy....obsidian-spiked-clubs need not be mentioned. Also you'll notice that even though the Book of Mormon itself doesn't mention "coinage" other than a modern interpolation, the objects in question were gold and silver -- metals to be sure. The sword of Laban was a steel sword with a gold hilt --

9 And I beheld his asword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

http://scriptures.ld.../4/9,18-19,21#9

Nephi was supposedly skilled in metallurgy because he pulled ore out of the Earth in Arabia and made his own set of tools to build his ship.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make atools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me? 10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools. 11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to ablow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire. 12 For the Lord had not hitherto suffered that we should make much fire, as we journeyed in the wilderness; for he said: I will make thy food become sweet, that ye acook it not; 13 And I will also be your alight in the wilderness; and I will prepare the way before you, if it so be that ye shall keep my commandments; wherefore, inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall be led towards the bpromised land; and ye shall cknow that it is by me that ye are led. 14 Yea, and the Lord said also that: After ye have arrived in the promised land, ye shall aknow that I, the Lord, am bGod; and that I, the Lord, did cdeliver you from destruction; yea, that I did bring you out of the land of Jerusalem. 15 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did strive to keep the acommandments of the Lord, and I did bexhort my brethren to faithfulness and diligence. 16 And it came to pass that I did a<a title="TG Skill." mark="a" type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/17/16a">make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

http://scriptures.ld...ne/17/9-10,16#9

Nephi also took his stolen sword of Laban after the separation of Nephites & Lamanites and fashed swords after the manner of Laban's sword. You'll also notice that Nephi mentioned all the various metals that were in great abundance (this is just sentences before he mentions having built a temple after the manner of the Temple of Solomon). So not only was there a skilled blacksmith (Nephi) but affirmative statements on what was available -- gold, silver and copper--

25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were abeasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of bore, both of cgold, and of silver, and of copper.

http://scriptures.ld...g/en/1_ne/18#25

Makes you wonder, with the knowledge Nephi had of working ore, of identifying ore, of having a steel & gold sword in his hand why he would have any difficulty at all in reproducing Laban's steel sword as a metal sword?

http://scriptures.ld...en/2_ne/5/14#14 14 And I, Nephi, did take the asword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many bswords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their chatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

You'll notice from the Book of Mormon that the words "obsidian" or "glass-edged-club" or "macuahitl" do not appear at all.

Honestly Doug this has been addressed many times to which refuted your assertions by myself and a whole bucket load of others here with archaeological evidence of iron and other metals molten. Steel is interpretive. Just like cement. Stop derailing. Changed wants to find resources to do an article. Stick to the subject and find resources and get off the soap box.

Apparently you fall into the context of this article.

http://www.livescience.com/culture/beliefts-against-majority-opinion-100803.html

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Standardized weights and measures of different metals with relational values = coins.

All primitive coins may have had standardized weights and measures of different metals, but not all standardized measures of different metals were coins.

Surely you can see the difference.

All uncles are men, but not all men are uncles.

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Are you inquiring in terms of gold an silver? The Dallas Museum of Art has a huge collection of Ancient American Art both in ceramic and metals. Nothing in the weapons class. However they did have some gold plated armor tunics. I don't think the curator of Ancient American Art that I worked with is no longer there. That was around 25+ years ago. Man I can't believe how time flies since I worked there. Here is a link to their website. You can visit the section entitled Ancient American Art. You call them they might be able to put you in touch with the current department head, and they can give you resources.

http://dallasmuseumo...ections/Objects

This site below has more of weapons for viewing, and I'm sure they can give you more resources including other metals instead of gold and silver if you contact them.

http://precolumbianartifact.com/

Here is another link to iron age America including furnaces in the Great Lakes region. Looks like you have to buy to get more in depth on the subject.

http://ironageamerica.com/

Have fun!

Edit: IMO on the site with weapons it shows lack of metal swords, but does have plenty of metal knives, axes, spears. It may be that obsidian could be the more preferred sword. I have seen and felt how sharp it is. In fact I even shaved with it. It is just as sharp as a razor and feels even more sharp than metal. Hawaiians used shark teeth sewn into wood shaped as cutting instruments. In fact I would place obsidian and shark teeth over razors for sharpness. Both don't decay or rust at the rate metal does.

Edit: In fact not to derail, but it is more evidence that Polynesians didn't settle in the Americas. We should find evidence of such Polynesian tools with shark teeth. East to West migration theory my okole!

Thanks! A much higher quality metal is needed for a long sword compared to a short dagger... most metals are too elastic/bendable to make a good sword.

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I do a little freelance writing, one of the new assignments that came up was "The history of metallurgy in Mesoamerica"

Can anyone here post some nice archeolgy links/finds? what year was nephite coinage used? or was it used? swords - is everyone still going with the non-metal sword idea? what is the earliest use of metal / earliest mesoamerican finds?

what did they use to carve in pictures in rocks etc. etc. ?

Thanks!

A quick Google search should get you started. you will find that there was mining and metallurgy in NA and SA folding into Mesoamerica.

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Does anyone know what date these roads were made?

http://www.ancientam...america.htm?n=0

cement is not metal, but someone who can make a high-quality cement has at least some knowledge of materials processing.

You ever heard of Puma Punku? Here is a link below around the 2:30 mark discuss how finely cut to interlock the stone work. Around the 3:50 mark show they used molding for metals to be poured in to lock the stone blocks together. Just if you want ignore the Ancient astronaut theorists. They can't consider that ancient man had knowledge to work these things out on their own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX2Z6pddRSQ&feature=related

The stones are made of granite and diorite. You need a strong tool to cut through such and the holes drilled in depth is another indicator.

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The stones are made of granite and diorite. You need a strong tool to cut through such and the holes drilled in depth is another indicator.

I was thinking along those lines - even if you don't find the tools, something had to cut through the granite... if they didn't use metal, than what did they use?

from the Dallas Art museum...

Gold 400BC

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