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Book of Abraham and the KEP


Lamanite

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I'm hoping that this thread will develop into greater and greater detail. Let me start with two quick items to get the ball rolling

This quote from Henry Eyring sums up my opinion on the Book of Abraham and the papyri:

An example of what I am talking about is the recent discovery of the papyrus scrolls from which Joseph Smith was presumed to have translated the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Modern scholars, looking at the scrolls, found nothing they considered to be similar to that book. I remarked at the time that such a finding didn't bother me in the least. God doesn't need a crib sheet in the form of a papyrus scroll to reveal Abraham's thoughts and words to Joseph Smith, with any degree of precision He considers necessary for His purposes. If the only function of the scrolls was to awaken the Prophet to the idea of receiving such inspiration, they would have fulfilled their purpose., (Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, p. 46 )

In regards to the KEP and the BoA, let me use FAIR's defense.

"the KEPE is a mishmash of linguistic gobbledygook. It is completely unclear how one could possibly get the one from the other"

Apologists? Critics?

Big UP!

Lamanite

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I'm hoping that this thread will develop into greater and greater detail. Let me start with two quick items to get the ball rolling

This quote from Henry Eyring sums up my opinion on the Book of Abraham and the papyri:

In regards to the KEP and the BoA, let me use FAIR's defense.

Apologists? Critics?

Big UP!

Lamanite

I promised to keep my mouth shut about certain matters. All I can say is that the notion that any portion of the KEP's represents the Book of Abraham translation in progress is an idea whose time has passed.

And the day after the FAIR conference, that will be common knowledge.

Regards,

Pahoran

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I promised to keep my mouth shut about certain matters. All I can say is that the notion that any portion of the KEP's represents the Book of Abraham translation in progress is an idea whose time has passed.

And the day after the FAIR conference, that will be common knowledge.

Regards,

Pahoran

This quote from FAIR wiki seems to imply there was a relationship between the two.

The Kirtland Egyptian Papers (KEP) are a collection of documents written by various individuals, mostly dating to the Kirtland period of Church history (early- to mid-1830s), constituting some sort of study documents relating to the Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri.

The KEP comprise 16 documents encompassing a total of about 120 pages. They are typically divided into two categories:

  • so-called Egyptian alphabet and grammar documents (KEPE), and
  • Book of Abraham manuscript documents (KEPA).

Is it your opinion that there never was in any way, shape, or form- a correlation between what became the BoA and the KEP?

Big UP!

Lamanite

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I promised to keep my mouth shut about certain matters. All I can say is that the notion that any portion of the KEP's represents the Book of Abraham translation in progress is an idea whose time has passed.

And the day after the FAIR conference, that will be common knowledge.

Regards,

Pahoran

You know it interesting, that I have not deeply studied this issue, but I never found the KEP= the translation of the BoA in progress as a very good argument/ theory. I look very much forward to Will's presentation. Well at least when it come out in a published form, either video or book or paper.

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In regards to the KEP and the BoA, let me use FAIR's defense.

"the KEPE is a mishmash of linguistic gobbledygook. It is completely unclear how one could possibly get the one from the other"

Apologists? Critics?

The FAIR quote above will be invalid after Will's presentation, and the wiki article will be rewritten.

(We have the word "gobbledygook" in the Wiki??) :P

WW

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The FAIR quote above will be invalid after Will's presentation, and the wiki article will be rewritten.

(We have the word "gobbledygook" in the Wiki??) :P

WW

Yes, it's actually referred to as the "gobbledygook" defense at Church headquarters.

So, are the two (KEP and BOA) related?

I know it seems that one doesn't necessarily equal the other in a perfect form, but the idea that they are completely and wholly unrelated is a bit extreme.

What about the KEP's= a bunch of guys tinkering with Egyptian stuff? Nothing more or less. (kind of the gobbledygook theory) Simulteneously arguing that the BoA was completely inspired and in no way has a textual basis in the Papyri?

Any of that work? Would that clear it all up?

Big UP!

Lamanite

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Yes, it's actually referred to as the "gobbledygook" defense at Church headquarters.

So, are the two (KEP and BOA) related?

I know it seems that one doesn't necessarily equal the other in a perfect form, but the idea that they are completely and wholly unrelated is a bit extreme.

What about the KEP's= a bunch of guys tinkering with Egyptian stuff? Nothing more or less. (kind of the gobbledygook theory) Simulteneously arguing that the BoA was completely inspired and in no way has a textual basis in the Papyri?

Any of that work? Would that clear it all up?

Big UP!

Lamanite

The word "gobbledygook" will be the first to go...

I just skimmed through the entire FAIR Wiki article Book of Abraham/Joseph Smith Papyri/Kirtland Egyptian Papers. I estimate that between one-third to one-half of it will need to be rewritten.

WW

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The word "gobbledygook" will be the first to go...

I just skimmed through the entire FAIR Wiki article Book of Abraham/Joseph Smith Papyri/Kirtland Egyptian Papers. I estimate that between one-third to one-half of it will need to be rewritten.

WW

So can you nutshell it? I'm just trying to figure out what everyone thinks about the KEP's in general, so that I can recognize the mind blasting revelation that will happen next week. I know no one wants to steal Will's thunder, but maybe you could tell me what everyone is thinking right now, just so I can catch up.

Would I be waaaay off base if I assumed that the position most interested Mormon's take is that the KEP's have no relationship to, or reflect in anyway, the BoA translation? I have a few follow up questions if I am correct in my assumption. If I'm no where near the consensus opinion of interested Mormon's, then can someone tell me what I should be thinking, as a Tabernacle Mormon (a little better than a Chapel Mormon) who is interested?

Big UP!

Lamanite

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So can you nutshell it? I'm just trying to figure out what everyone thinks about the KEP's in general, so that I can recognize the mind blasting revelation that will happen next week. I know no one wants to steal Will's thunder, but maybe you could tell me what everyone is thinking right now, just so I can catch up.

Would I be waaaay off base if I assumed that the position most interested Mormon's take is that the KEP's have no relationship to, or reflect in anyway, the BoA translation? I have a few follow up questions if I am correct in my assumption. If I'm no where near the consensus opinion of interested Mormon's, then can someone tell me what I should be thinking, as a Tabernacle Mormon (a little better than a Chapel Mormon) who is interested?

Big UP!

Lamanite

My perception of the KEP has been irrevocably altered, so I'm not really in a position to comment regarding what most LDS might think. Actually, most LDS have never even heard of the KEP. The truth is that anyone who previewed the presentation is under non-disclosure until after the conference.

The Deseret News has previewed it. Here's what they had to say:

A Book of Abraham mystery to be solved at FAIR Conference

By Michael De Groote

Deseret News

Published: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:00 p.m. MDT

William Schryver is onto something big, and it's driving critics of the Book of Abraham crazy.

Schryver is scheduled to speak at the FAIR Conference, an annual event presented by the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR. The conference focuses on defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints against misrepresentation.

This year's conference is Aug. 5 and 6 at the South Towne Exposition Center in Sandy. Schryver's presentation on "The Meaning of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers" is one of several topics by other speakers such as David Bokovoy, Jeff Bradshaw, William Duncan, Craig Foster, John Gee, Brian Hales, Valerie Hudson, Gary Lawrence, Steve Mayfield, Dan Peterson, Shirley Ricks, Stephen Ricks, Matthew Roper, Royal Skousen and Peter Watkins.

Schryver's topic has garnered the most buzz on the Internet

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A Book of Abraham mystery to be solved at FAIR Conference

The boldness of this sentence scares me. In fact, the only thing that could have scared me more is if it said "completely solved."

I appreciate you comments man. You were good enough to drop in.

Big UP!

Lamanite

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Anyone agree with or disagree with the Eyring statement from my OP?

An example of what I am talking about is the recent discovery of the papyrus scrolls from which Joseph Smith was presumed to have translated the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Modern scholars, looking at the scrolls, found nothing they considered to be similar to that book. I remarked at the time that such a finding didn't bother me in the least. God doesn't need a crib sheet in the form of a papyrus scroll to reveal Abraham's thoughts and words to Joseph Smith, with any degree of precision He considers necessary for His purposes. If the only function of the scrolls was to awaken the Prophet to the idea of receiving such inspiration, they would have fulfilled their purpose., (Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, p. 46 )

Big UP!

Lamanite

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Anyone agree with or disagree with the Eyring statement from my OP?

An example of what I am talking about is the recent discovery of the papyrus scrolls from which Joseph Smith was presumed to have translated the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Modern scholars, looking at the scrolls, found nothing they considered to be similar to that book. I remarked at the time that such a finding didn't bother me in the least. God doesn't need a crib sheet in the form of a papyrus scroll to reveal Abraham's thoughts and words to Joseph Smith, with any degree of precision He considers necessary for His purposes. If the only function of the scrolls was to awaken the Prophet to the idea of receiving such inspiration, they would have fulfilled their purpose., (Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, p. 46 )

Big UP!

Lamanite

I agree that Joseph did not need any manuscript in order to produce the Book of Abraham. The Book of Moses is one such book produced through inspiration without an extant manuscript.

Glenn

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Anyone agree with or disagree with the Eyring statement from my OP?

Big UP!

Lamanite

He seems to be in favor of the catalyst theory. I don't know? It is as good a theory as any. My brother happens to think this is what happened.

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Lamanite,

I think that you should re-evaluate your assumptions about the chronology of the BoA and the KEP. If you do that, and then reconsider some of what Will himself has written about his presentation, you might get the gist of the direction of this "game-changing" presentation.

I know this is going to be a great presentation. :P

- SlackTime

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So if some of us believe the "catalyst" then where do the KEP fit in? I guess this is where Will steps in and drops the bomb on me.

Cue the early 1980's musical stylings of the Gap Band- You Dropped a Bomb- 29sec mark

- Will is the guy in the middle

Big UP!

Lamanite

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So if some of us believe the "catalyst" then where do the KEP fit in? I guess this is where Will steps in and drops the bomb on me.

Cue the early 1980's musical stylings of the Gap Band- You Dropped a Bomb

Big UP!

Lamanite

Since his presentation has nothing to do with how the Book of Abraham came to be, and is entirely about what the KEP is, your opinions regarding the scrolls as "catalysts" for the Book of Abraham are totally safe. As are "missing scroll" theories I might add. In fact I believe Will has an ongoing discussion of scroll lengths in the pundits area, but this presentation I do not believe has anything at all to do with that.

- SlackTime

- SlackTime

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Perhaps I'm missing something here, but even if Will refutes the KEP and it becomes a non-issue, how does that solve the problems of the BoA??

I don't think anyone has said that this one presentation solves every question regarding the Book of Abraham. I think Will has specifically said that this is directed at the KEP papers. What has made you think otherwise?

- SlackTime

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Perhaps I'm missing something here, but even if Will refutes the KEP and it becomes a non-issue, how does that solve the problems of the BoA??

It doesn't Will arguement, if I understand it is the role the KEP plays in the BoA. That is it.

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Since his presentation has nothing to do with how the Book of Abraham came to be, and is entirely about what the KEP is, your opinions regarding the scrolls as "catalysts" for the Book of Abraham are totally safe. As are "missing scroll" theories I might add. In fact I believe Will has an ongoing discussion of scroll lengths in the pundits area, but this presentation I do not believe has anything at all to do with that.

- SlackTime

- SlackTime

I see.

I'm curious as to how one completely separates the two. Does one not have anything to do with the other?

Big UP!

Lamanite

P.S. Ed I think you should have this as your sign off or your avatar. :P

bigeds_logo.jpg

or

SS10ani.gif

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I see.

I'm curious as to how one completely separates the two. Does one not have anything to do with the other?

Big UP!

Lamanite

Now you are starting to question your assumptions! And if one has something to do with the other, which has to do with which??? :P

Enjoy the conference!

- SlackTime

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Now you are starting to question your assumptions! And if one has something to do with the other, which has to do with which??? :P

Enjoy the conference!

- SlackTime

FWIW.... I think the BoA stands alone and independent as an inspired sacred text. While the KEP's, are a collection of writings that represent Joseph's and others failed attempt(s) to tinker with all things Egyptian. Give or take a few successes.

Way off base? Looking for validation here. Tell me if I'm right and I'll skip the conference and take my wife to Vegas. lol

Big UP!

Lamanite

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FWIW.... I think the BoA stands alone and independent as an inspired sacred text. While the KEP's, are a collection of writings that represent Joseph's and others failed attempt(s) to tinker with all things Egyptian. Give or take a few successes.

Way off base? Looking for validation here. Tell me if I'm right and I'll skip the conference and take my wife to Vegas. lol

Big UP!

Lamanite

Sorry, can't say anything more... I've seen parts of the presentation. :P

But definitely go to the conference over Las Vegas.... You'd miss the FAIR Auction ;)

- SlackTime

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Lamanite,

There is unavoidably, and to a certain degree, a "correlation" between the KEP and the BoA. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute it the "true" nature of that "correlation". Critics have argued that KEP acted as a translation key for the BoA (or at least the first three verses). Some apologists have argued that the KEP was reverse-engineered from the BoA. I have argued that the KEP was to some degree reverse-engineered from the BoA for the purpose of learning the Egyptian language. We will just have to wait and see if, after Will's presentation, we may all be incorrect.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Lamanite,

There is unavoidably a "correlation" between the KEP and the BoA. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute it the "true" nature of that "correlation". Critics have argued that KEP acted as a translation key for the BoA (or at least the first three verses). Some apologists have argued that the KEP was reverse-engineered from the BoA. I have argued that the KEP was to some degree reverse-engineered from the BoA for the purpose of learning the Egyptian language. We will just have to wait and see if, after Will's presentation, we may all be incorrect.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks Wade.

I guess I couldn't see what the big hub bub was about. As a "Tabernacle Mormon" (waaaay better than a Chapel Mormon) the BoA is an inspired text. The papyri could have been in another room while Joseph "translated" the BoA for all I care. (the Book of Mormon seems to support such a method) Nevertheless, the text exists now and I consider it to be the word of God.

I can think my way around the KEP issues, backwards or forwards, forwards or backwards, or some form of "gobbeldygook" that agrees with my current beliefs. And those beliefs are open to discussion and change as new light is shed on the issue.

So I guess I will wait for the presentation....

Giant Big UP! to you my friend,

Lamanite

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