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Faith is a decision


Scott Lloyd

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Thanks for your input. Well I would vigorously dispute your assertion that belief is a conscious, rational choice. But I do agree certainty is not necessarily a conscious rational choice. Have not read the book will have to queue it up.

All the Best,

Uncertain

I have distinct and somewhat idiosyncratic personal definitions for faith and belief. They are, IMO, very different. So if you are saying "I would vigorously dispute your assertion that belief is a conscious, rational choice." If you substitute 'faith' for 'belief', I'm with you.

Tsuzuki is not a nut-case with his paradigm piracy behavior. He understands psychology very well (he's a psych major). I would go so far as to say, if you don't have a grasp on psychology, you'll find a rational understanding of the nuts & bolts of belief, faith and religion itself, to be beyond your grasp. Balance rational understanding (binah) with irrational wisdom (chokmah) and life experience, and *knowing* becomes an option, paradoxical as it is. Anyway that's my view.

I side with the biblical and BoM definitions for faith, as well as a bit of the Lectures on Faith definition. Belief is something else entirely, and is subject to the manipulations of the conscious mind.

HiJolly

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I can't disagree with any of the above Don. I see now that in the past I have perhaps come across as more abolutist on this subject than is proper.

Wow, Scott, thank you! :P

I think on matters of faith, we are all struggling to "see through a glass darkly," intellectually as much as anything else.

Agreed!!!

Don

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I agree with this, and I've said before that it is FAR too simplistic to pin a lifelong belief on a single event. Most beliefs come about from a lifetime of events.

I would disagree that belief or faith results from a lifetime of experience. I have met some very young people who possessed a knowledge beyond their years. Faith develops from an open mind and a humility to be lead by the Holy Spirit. We may choose to reject this guidance or accept it. In accepting to follow, we know of its truth because we have felt the Spirit and agreed to follow.

If you are talking about knowing the intracasies of all doctrine or theology, then I would agree that it takes a lifetime to learn. However, that learning does not overcome the first spiritual witness. To the contrary, it may be that expereince that overcomes the secular learning to which we are exposed.

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Hi All,

The idea that we have full and complete control over what be believe I think is self evidently false. For those who disagree I propose a serious of experiments first go outside look at the sky and then with an effort of will make yourself believe the sky is not blue don't just claim the sky is not blue really and truly in your hearts of hearts make yourself believe the sky is not blue.

Not that I disagree with your point, but if I thought it to my advantage to genuinely believe the sky is not blue, I could do so. But, I have a rather maleable mind when it comes to pragmatism.

Second experiment, for those with a conviction of Mormonism make an effort of will and stop believing in Mormonism and with all your soul start believing in Islam you can always make an effort of will and switch back no harm no foul :P.

Again, if I thought it would work to my advantage, I could do this as well.

If belief is purely a matter of choice a simple exercise in your free agency then both of these things should be possible.

I would suggest that even though it is possible, I am not sure that belief is purely a matter of choice. Evidence and reasoning also play a factor.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Thanks for your input. Well I would vigorously dispute your assertion that belief is a conscious, rational choice. But I do agree certainty is not necessarily a conscious rational choice. Have not read the book will have to queue it up.

All the Best,

Uncertain

If you look back we have had this discussion before. I stand with those who think that belief is a choice. It is the sum of choices. One gathers (receives) information and sorts it according to life experiences then makes choices to accept or reject for whatever reasons. These choices then become part and parcel of our beliefs.

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Not that I disagree with your point, but if I thought it to my advantage to genuinely believe the sky is not blue, I could do so. But, I have a rather maleable mind when it comes to pragmatism.

Again, if I thought it would work to my advantage, I could do this as well.

Well I would truly be amazed if you could my shear force of will make yourself truly believe the sky is not blue while you were looking at it. I would also add this is easily tested simply use your will power to make yourself believe it is to your benefit to believe the sky is not blue then with your new found belief use your will power to make yourself believe the sky is not blue. Seems like a harmless test once your done use your willpower to make yourself believe the sky is blue again. Frankly I am more than a little skeptical. Also it is to your benefit you could win a debate on the internet if you can demonstrate this ability :P. Plus you would amaze me I mean whats not to your benefit ;)?

I would suggest that even though it is possible, I am not sure that belief is purely a matter of choice. Evidence and reasoning also play a factor.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well I agree with you here.

All the Best,

Uncertain

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If you look back we have had this discussion before. I stand with those who think that belief is a choice. It is the sum of choices. One gathers (receives) information and sorts it according to life experiences then makes choices to accept or reject for whatever reasons. These choices then become part and parcel of our beliefs.

Well then you should be able to easily accomplish the two tests I set up. If belief is purely a matter of free will a combination of all choices we make. I would challenge you to use your free will and make yourself truly believe the sky is not blue. Without this sort of support your statement is an assertion without evidence a statement of belief as it were :P.

All the Best,

Uncertain

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Hi Scott,

I see so belief is not in fact merely an exercise of free will instead belief is thrust upon us by God. A person could make all the "correct" decision fertilize the seed so to speak but ultimately it is up to God whether that person believes or not hence it is not the person choosing to believe it is God choosing to give or not give belief. The person merely choose the prerequisites to belief whether he ultimately believes is not up to him. Does the same thing apply to believers in other religions I wonder? Does a person fertilize the field with regards to say Hinduism and God then grants him belief in Hinduism?

If we leave the religious labels out of the matter, I would say that the ability to perceive and comprehend truth is ultimately a gift from God. I happen to believe that a fullness of truth with regard to personal salvation is in the tenets, covenants and ordinances found within Mormonism.

It does not matter if personal revelation is a tenet of Islam. If belief is purely a matter of freely chosen decisions made by you then you can in fact believe in anything because it is merely a matter of exercising your free agency to make those decisions that cause you to form belief. Simply exercise your free agency and poof you will believe in Islam that is all there is to it. Then simply exercise your free agency again to make the correct decisions with regards to Mormonism and poof you will be back to believing in Mormonism no worries :P.

I'm not sure I ever said belief is purely "a matter of freely chosen decisions...." If I did, you may feel free to consider my position altered.

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Interesting, isn't it, how most of the Church members seem to agree that faith is on some level a choice, while those who are not or once were believers insist they had no control over what they believed.

It's never your fault that you have lost your faith, is it?

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Uncertain, I highly recommend that you read Amazon: On Being Certain

Unlike belief, certainty simply *is not* a conscious, rational choice. It is produced by the subconscious mind, which is STILL your mind, whether you like that or not.

Joseph Smith knew it, and scientific analysis has confirmed it. Have you read the book?

HiJolly

I'm pretty familiar with that book. Can you show me what comments Joseph Smith made that were explcitily confirmed by this book?

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If we leave the religious labels out of the matter, I would say that the ability to perceive and comprehend truth is ultimately a gift from God. I happen to believe that a fullness of truth with regard to personal salvation is in the tenets, covenants and ordinances found within Mormonism.

I am not certain how to respond this appears to be a declaration of your personal beliefs not an argument which is fine.

I'm not sure I ever said belief is purely "a matter of freely chosen decisions...." If I did, you may feel free to consider my position altered.

Well perhaps we are not so far apart. I absolutely think as I have stated our personal choices can and do influence our beliefs to a large extent. I don't think for reasons I outlined our personal choices freely chosen entirely determine our beliefs and that by simply making a set of choices we can entirely and completely determine what beliefs we will have. There are components of belief that is beyond our control.

All the Best,

Uncertain

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Interesting, isn't it, how most of the Church members seem to agree that faith is on some level a choice, while those who are not or once were believers insist they had no control over what they believed.

It's never your fault that you have lost your faith, is it?

I don't find it all that surprising. There are religious considerations at play here. It is religiously unpalatable to think whether or not we believe something is not entirely in our control. Hence it is not surprising church members fight against this idea. I would also add I for one do not claim unbelievers had entirely no control over their beliefs certainly they had some I just don't think anyone has complete conscious control over beliefs. And it is not only sinners and heathens on this thread who believe this. If I understand him correctly Daniel Peterson also thinks we don't necessarily have conscious control over our beliefs.

All the Best,

Uncertain

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Interesting, isn't it, how most of the Church members seem to agree that faith is on some level a choice, while those who are not or once were believers insist they had no control over what they believed.

It's never your fault that you have lost your faith, is it?

Well, I for one acknowledge there is a fair amount of choice in the matter and I don't think ex-mormons should be so defensive about it. On the other hand, choices are not made in a vacuum but in the context of a certain period of life, and that context is often beyond a person's control and can strongly influence which choices seem viable.

Example 1) a young man is serving an LDS mission in South America and is thoroughly loving the experience. Then he hears about the Book of Abraham controversy and Joseph Smith's polygamy (somehow he never heard this stuff before... go figure). Most likely he will put the troubling information out of his mind. He will make the choice to continue in his faith.

Example 2) a young man is attending a secular university and dating a non-LDS woman who he loves. She tells him about the Book of Abraham controversy and Joseph Smith's polygamy. This could be a real challenge for him. He may or may not choose to continue in his faith.

The young man in 1 and 2 could be the very same person in different periods of his life. In black and white his choices are the same, but when you put them in the balance of life it is not so simple. The context, which he does not fully control, is probably more important than simplistic ideas about free agency.

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I am not certain how to respond this appears to be a declaration of your personal beliefs not an argument which is fine.

It was in response to your question about whether God might grant someone a belief in Hinduism. I'm saying that the ability to perceive truth is God-given, and, to the extent that Hinduism or any other faith contains truth, the ability to perceive that truth is a gift from God. I then stated my belief that a fullness of salvific truth is found within Mormonism, and if one prepares himself to receive it (a conscious choice), God will sooner or later direct his path toward the fullness of the gospel as taught in Mormonism.

Well perhaps we are not so far apart. I absolutely think as I have stated our personal choices can and do influence our beliefs to a large extent. I don't think for reasons I outlined our personal choices freely chosen entirely determine our beliefs and that by simply making a set of choices we can entirely and completely determine what beliefs we will have. There are components of belief that is beyond our control.

But not beyond God's control. And that's why I alluded to Christ's analogy about a loving father who will not give stones to a son who asks for bread.

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Well then you should be able to easily accomplish the two tests I set up. If belief is purely a matter of free will a combination of all choices we make. I would challenge you to use your free will and make yourself truly believe the sky is not blue. Without this sort of support your statement is an assertion without evidence a statement of belief as it were :P.

All the Best,

Uncertain

It is clear you have a comprehension problem. I said nothing about making one self believe against the prepoderance of evidence. I said I weighed the information according to my experiences and then made decisions accordingly. If your experience tells you the sky is not blue then welcome to earth.

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Well I would truly be amazed if you could my shear force of will make yourself truly believe the sky is not blue while you were looking at it. I would also add this is easily tested simply use your will power to make yourself believe it is to your benefit to believe the sky is not blue then with your new found belief use your will power to make yourself believe the sky is not blue.

That's better. I can't, by shear force of will ALONE, make myself believe certain things. I also need to believe it is in my interest to do so. That has been my position all along.

Seems like a harmless test once your done use your willpower to make yourself believe the sky is blue again.

It takes more than just being harmless. It needs to be to my advantage.

Frankly I am more than a little skeptical. Also it is to your benefit you could win a debate on the internet if you can demonstrate this ability :P.

Not that winning debates matters to me, but I have already won this internet debate. I am just waiting for you to realize it (I suspect your shear force of will alone is preventing you from believing and accepting it. LOL).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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...most of the Church members seem to agree that faith is on some level

a choice, while those who are not or once were believers insist they

had no control over what they believed.

...

But belief is not faith.

I can believe that the streets in heaven are paved with gold,

and then recognize the error of such belief -- and nevertheless

retain and grow in my trust of Heavenly Father, all the while.

Choosing to believe some doctrine(s) of Mormonism is not necessarily

true faith -- or, at least so profess those of my religious background.

UD

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It was in response to your question about whether God might grant someone a belief in Hinduism. I'm saying that the ability to perceive truth is God-given, and, to the extent that Hinduism or any other faith contains truth, the ability to perceive that truth is a gift from God. I then stated my belief that a fullness of salvific truth is found within Mormonism, and if one prepares himself to receive it (a conscious choice), God will sooner or later direct his path toward the fullness of the gospel as taught in Mormonism.

Ah now I see, so when a person converts to Hinduism and believes not only things compatible to Mormonism but also things contradictory to one or more LDS doctrines where did his belief in those contradictory doctrines come from God? Satan? a product purely of his environment? Did he make a conscious freely chosen decision to believe something false? (you know how I feel about this option). And of course your belief in Mormonism is not like a Hindu's belief in Hinduism your belief is God given a gift straight from God. Whereas his belief at least his belief in Hindu doctrines contradictory to LDS doctrines is not from God but some other source. Well it is a faith based assertion maybe it is even true :P.

But not beyond God's control. And that's why I alluded to Christ's analogy about a loving father who will not give stones to a son who asks for bread.

I see so belief is not in fact something we freely chose and have 100 percent control over. Instead God chooses for us at least when it comes to belief in Mormonism sounds vaguely Calvinistic God will chose who he will chose. I imagine you would claim God will always chose to impose belief once a person freely chooses a given set of actions? Hence if a person does not believe he must not have correctly performed certain actions he is not a "true Scotsman ;)".

And all those unbelievers who lost belief clearly they freely chose to perform incorrect actions and God then took their belief away is this how it works?

All the Best,

Uncertain

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I'm pretty familiar with that book. Can you show me what comments Joseph Smith made that were explcitily confirmed by this book?

The book does not explicitly confirm anything Joseph said. However, it does support the statement "faith is a gift from God", depending on how you define 'God'.

HiJolly

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That's better. I can't, by shear force of will ALONE, make myself believe certain things. I also need to believe it is in my interest to do so. That has been my position all along.

Hi Wenglund,

Well if all it takes is your belief it is in your best interest. And as you claim you can consciously decide what you believe all you have to do is first is with an exercise of will or whatever method you use consciously decide it is in your best interest to believe the sky is not blue then proceed from there. The problem is I fail to see the difference in you having conscious control over whether or not the sky is blue and you having conscious control over believing it is to your advantage to believe the sky is blue. Simply use your free will and consciously decide to alter your belief such that you now truly believe it is to your advantage to believe the sky is not blue then go from there :P.

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Hi Wenglund,

Well if all it takes is your belief it is in your best interest. And as you claim you can consciously decide what you believe all you have to do is first is with an exercise of will or whatever method you use consciously decide it is in your best interest to believe the sky is not blue then proceed from there. The problem is I fail to see the difference in you having conscious control over whether or not the sky is blue and you having conscious control over believing it is to your advantage to believe the sky is blue. Simply use your free will and consciously decide to alter your belief such that you now truly believe it is to your advantage to believe the sky is not blue then go from there :P.

One can always tell that the opponent has lost the debate when they resort to red herring arguments and you certainly have. You are being deliberatly obtuse. No one has claimed that you make decisions independent of the rest of your experiences only that you choose what you give credence to. Again if you have had expeience with another coler of sky then welcome to earth and I hope your stay is pleasant.

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The book does not explicitly confirm anything Joseph said. However, it does support the statement "faith is a gift from God", depending on how you define 'God'.

HiJolly

Where do you fit God into Burton's book? For example on page 61:

The general concept of modularity is a powerful tool for generalizing how the brain functions including the formation of our thoughts. The feeling of knowing is universal, most likely originates within a localized region of the brain, can be spontaneously activated via direct stimulation or chemical manipulation, yet cannot be triggered by conscious effort. These arguments for its inclusion as a primary brain module are more compelling than those postulated for deceit, compassion, forgiveness, altruism, or Machiavellian cunning. One can stimulate the brain and produce a feeling of knowing; one cannot stimulate the brain and create a politician.

italics are the author's

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One can always tell that the opponent has lost the debate when they resort to red herring arguments and you certainly have. You are being deliberatly obtuse. No one has claimed that you make decisions independent of the rest of your experiences only that you choose what you give credence to. Again if you have had expeience with another coler of sky then welcome to earth and I hope your stay is pleasant.

Hi ERayR,

You can always tell an opponent has lost the debate when they resort to straw men :P. If belief is purely a matter of exercising our free will. Than you can believe in anything simply by exercising your free will. If you can't believe the sky is not blue simply by exercising your free will than this is an example of a belief that is not under the control of your free will. I am not sure how many other ways I can put this. If you can control with an exercise of free will what you believe than you can make yourself believe the sky is not blue simply by an exercise of free will. I am arguing your experience of seeing the sky is blue makes up your mind for you. Your experience completely trumps your free will when you experience the sky is blue you believe the sky is blue. It's not like you go outside see the sky is blue and say to yourself well I can freely chose to believe or not believe the sky is blue and I chose to freely believe. Belief is completely subconscious you see the sky is blue you believe the sky is blue. This is my argument. We internally synthesize the various evidences for or against a given position and belief arises we don't sit around saying I am now going to make a conscious decision to believe X and poof I now believe X.

You would argue a person can with a exercise in free will stop themselves believing the sky is blue while directly observing the sky is blue making this switch either directly or though a series of decisions made by the person. I challenge you to prove it by doing so. Make yourself believe the sky is not blue. If you truly have complete conscious control over your beliefs you should be able to do so. Irregardless of what you experience because by definition you have complete conscious control hence can believe whatever you decide to believe regardless of any other considerations.

All the Best,

Uncertain

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Hi ERayR,

You can always tell an opponent has lost the debate when they resort to straw men :P. If belief is purely a matter of exercising our free will. Than you can believe in anything simply by exercising your free will. If you can't believe the sky is not blue simply by exercising your free will than this is an example of a belief that is not under the control of your free will. I am not sure how many other ways I can put this. If you can control with an exercise of free will what you believe than you can make yourself believe the sky is not blue simply by an exercise of free will. I am arguing your experience of seeing the sky is blue makes up your mind for you. Your experience completely trumps your free will when you experience the sky is blue you believe the sky is blue. It's not like you go outside see the sky is blue and say to yourself well I can freely chose to believe or not believe the sky is blue and I chose to freely believe. Belief is completely subconscious you see the sky is blue you believe the sky is blue. This is my argument. We internally synthesize the various evidences for or against a given position and belief arises we don't sit around saying I am now going to make a conscious decision to believe X and poof I now believe X.

You would argue a person can with a exercise in free will stop themselves believing the sky is blue while directly observing the sky is blue making this switch either directly or though a series of decisions made by the person. I challenge you to prove it by doing so. Make yourself believe the sky is not blue. If you truly have complete conscious control over your decisions you should be able to do so. Irregardless of what you experience because by definition you have complete conscious control hence can believe whatever you decide to believe regardless of any other considerations.

All the Best,

Uncertain

Again are you being deliberatly obtuse? I have said several times belief is the sum of the evidences we choose to accept. If you want to say the sky is not blue it conflicts with other evidences you have so it is not accepted. Again, beliefs are a sum not and individual data point.

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