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God and physics


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Hi,

Could someone tell me whether or not God has control over the laws of physics or must he abide by them? Did he create them? I understand the laws to be absolute and unchanging -- and eternal, I would think. I also understand Joseph Smith taught that matter is eternal and God organized (and possibly continues to organize) this matter so that we can enjoy the beauty we see and feel around us. So while this matter is being organized, does God allow the laws of physics to take control or does God somehow drive the ship at the lower level that man has still not figured out (see reference below of items yet to be figured out)? How much "standing by and watching" does he do? Could he ever be considered part of the science itself? As if it is part of God? Could God somehow encompass life around us?

Every time I read this: "God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice" I think about my physics question. This is similar in nature: God did not create justice but follows it. Obviously, justice is not a part of God.

I really appreciate any thoughts you might have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics

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Hi,

Could someone tell me whether or not God has control over the laws of physics or must he abide by them?

Both. He has control over them and he also abides by the laws he controls. Basically, he is one with them.

Did he create them?

The word "create" can correctly refer to "organize", and yes he (and others who are God) do organize everything in existence, as well as live by all the laws they establish.

I understand the laws to be absolute and unchanging -- and eternal, I would think.

The laws, themselves, are absolute and unchanging, but different laws can be applied or mixed together at different times to achieve different results. For example, the laws governing the elements of water are absolute and unchanging, but different laws can be applied or mixed together with the laws that govern the elements of water to achieve something other than water.

I also understand Joseph Smith taught that matter is eternal and God organized (and possibly continues to organize) this matter so that we can enjoy the beauty we see and feel around us. So while this matter is being organized, does God allow the laws of physics to take control or does God somehow drive the ship at the lower level that man has still not figured out (see reference below of items yet to be figured out)?

God allows the laws of physics (that he utilizes) to take control by utilizing those laws to control everything, based on the laws that he utilizes to control everything. For example, there are laws that control (or cause) the movement of all objects in space, and God utilizes those laws to cause all objects in space to move, otherwise the objects don't move.

How much "standing by and watching" does he do?

He sees everything, and he knows everything, including seeing and knowing what everything will do.

Could he ever be considered part of the science itself? As if it is part of God? Could God somehow encompass life around us?

Yes, yes, and yes. God is in everything, and without God there would be nothing.

Every time I read this: "God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice" I think about my physics question. This is similar in nature: God did not create justice but follows it. Obviously, justice is not a part of God.

Your "obviously" statement is wrong. Justice is a part of what God is.

God personifies justice, and mercy, and love, and all other things in existence... including evil, I think, by showing that evil is the opposite of what he is.

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God allows the laws of physics (that he utilizes) to take control by utilizing those laws to control everything, based on the laws that he utilizes to control everything. For example, there are laws that control (or cause) the movement of all objects in space, and God utilizes those laws to cause all objects in space to move, otherwise the objects don't move.

Yes, yes, and yes. God is in everything, and without God there would be nothing.

Thank you very much for the answers. I have a follow up question. You confirmed that God is part of the science itself and the laws of physics are a part of God and that God encompasses life around us. But you also said God uses the laws of physics. I also read that God had to appease the demands of justice (another law).

Does that present any kind of dilemma for you? It presents a dilemma for me because it is hard for me to grasp just how God would need to appease himself or use a part of himself.

This would present the same dilemma as the Christian Trinity. If there is one God, how would God send himself to earth and pray to himself.

The law/God dilemma is parallel to the Trinity dilemma in my mind. Could you provide any thoughts in this regard? I really appreciate your help.

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I would guess that both physics and justice predate the Godhood of the Father. Just a guess, though.

So God is not all-encompassing then? The science/laws cannot be part of God if it pre-dates God. Or can it? How?

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Ooh. I feel like I am so close to being able to answer this question in a very coherent way, but I will hold off until this comes up again in a month (I need more time).

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Ooh. I feel like I am so close to being able to answer this question in a very coherent way, but I will hold off until this comes up again in a month (I need more time).

This comes up often? Does this seem like a dilemma to you as well? I have wondered about this for many years.

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This comes up often? Does this seem like a dilemma to you as well? I have wondered about this for many years.

As someone who loves meaty doctrine, philosophy and theology, this topic tickles me in the right places.

Dilemma wouldn't be the right word for me, more like motivation for me to educate myself.

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As someone who loves meaty doctrine, philosophy and theology, this topic tickles me in the right places.

Dilemma wouldn't be the right word for me, more like motivation for me to educate myself.

Thanks Facsimile 3. While I am far from an expert in meaty doctrines, this has been a big one for me.

I'm curious to know how a believer in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity deals with this question as well.

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Part (not most, but part) of this puzzle is semantics in the use of the word God.

There is that which is God which predates the person who is (our) God the Father having ascended to Godhood. Perhaps this aspect (????) of God is understood by LDS as the Spirit, since we take the Spirit to be pervasive at all points in the multi-metaverse (that is MY word, which I only mean all that IS, taking our universe as a local phenomena). And it would be God the Father's complete oneness with the Spirit (and our potential to do so as well) that would give rise to such things as, say, omniscience and omnipotence (the latter being the complete subjection of all laws to God, the person's, manipulation) within the concrete personage of God (the Father). So hopefully let's not waste time discussing doctrinal semantics and really get to the mechanics, no matter what rose by any name it is.

I used to think that physics as we know it "pre-dated" God, but I've since changed my mind to thinking that God may have well made up the physics for this universe, period. For use in his purposes. But I'm not sure yet. Still thinking through it.

However, that still begs the question as to WHAT (if not physics or called physics) would then pre-date God that would allow him to access some kind of source material and/or source paradigm in order to come up with physics.

I also am not convinced that anything exists independent of being. I think that the form and substance that we experience as human(/God) IS the point of origin for anything else, physics and laws included. A sort of holy, magnificent "if you can dream it, you can do it".

But then we get into -- what is good and evil? Don't want to touch that here.

As far as how and why the atonement of Jesus Christ working mechanically, I don't know that I could do justice to even my thoughts on the matter in a post like this. But I think I will just say one or two things, hopefully they will make sense.

Justice, in my thinking, is not some grand independent warm fuzzy thing. Justice is in relation to a system -- the justice of a system. In this sense, Justice IS physics, since what it means is that energy cannot be left over from a system -- the energy has to be used in some way; the energy WILL show up somewhere (conserved). Because the universe, and therefore the earth, and therefore any atonement in it, is a closed (energetic) system. Energy HAS to have somewhere to go.

Thus the atonement of Jesus Christ is leverage to allow ascension/salvation energy flow to everyone in the system (repentance) and to absorb and transform all the negative energy (at the point of a Savior). The atonement provides thrust for the ascension and neutralizes the destruction energy.

Okay, maybe I've made things more confusing and I certainly haven't explained every thing even I have in my own mind -- and I'm sure I have much more to learn about it. But maybe that will give you a few ideas to chew on.

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Thank you very much for the answers. I have a follow up question. You confirmed that God is part of the science itself and the laws of physics are a part of God and that God encompasses life around us. But you also said God uses the laws of physics. I also read that God had to appease the demands of justice (another law).

Does that present any kind of dilemma for you? It presents a dilemma for me because it is hard for me to grasp just how God would need to appease himself or use a part of himself.

With justice being part of what God is, or with God being a just God, God needed to appease himself by appeasing the demands of justice because otherwise justice would not be served. He would be giving laws without doing what it takes to uphold justice by seeing that justice is served, and God can't do that because God would not be a just God or upholding justice if he did, or tried.

In other words, for God to be a just God, God must do what is just, with justice being something that can't be ignored because otherwise there would be no justice.

This would present the same dilemma as the Christian Trinity. If there is one God, how would God send himself to earth and pray to himself.

God didn't send himself or pray to himself. He sent someone else who was also God, and that other person who was God prayed to the other God-person who sent him. There is the Father, and there is the Son, and while they are both God, they are not the same God-person.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, came to satisfy the demands of the law which God the Father had issued, and those demands needed to be satisfied otherwise justice would not have been satisified and God would not have been upholding justice.

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I would guess that both physics and justice predate the Godhood of the Father. Just a guess, though.

I understand that God has not been God forever. There was a beginning to his Godhood. If this is the case, the underlying laws of life are greater than God assuming these laws are absolute and eternal. I can't fathom how God (as I have been taught to understand) and these laws can be one as Ahab suggested.

I want to believe that God is all encompassing through our lives. I want to think he is the architect of the absolutes. To me, that is a God.

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I used to think that physics as we know it "pre-dated" God, but I've since changed my mind to thinking that God may have well made up the physics for this universe, period. For use in his purposes. But I'm not sure yet. Still thinking through it.

That is an interesting idea. So you are saying that God is the almighty God of this sphere of space we refer to as the universe? Outside of that sphere (dimension??) there would be other Gods? But within this sphere, God is one with everything? He created the underlying laws and is part of them. When I look out my window at the trees and clouds, His creations, I see God, in a way? So other spheres with other Gods have different underlying laws?

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With justice being part of what God is, or with God being a just God, God needed to appease himself by appeasing the demands of justice because otherwise justice would not be served. He would be giving laws without doing what it takes to uphold justice by seeing that justice is served, and God can't do that because God would not be a just God or upholding justice if he did, or tried.

In other words, for God to be a just God, God must do what is just, with justice being something that can't be ignored because otherwise there would be no justice.

God didn't send himself or pray to himself. He sent someone else who was also God, and that other person who was God prayed to the other God-person who sent him. There is the Father, and there is the Son, and while they are both God, they are not the same God-person.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, came to satisfy the demands of the law which God the Father had issued, and those demands needed to be satisfied otherwise justice would not have been satisified and God would not have been upholding justice.

Ahab,

What is the difference between appeasing oneself and praying to oneself?

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I understand that God has not been God forever.

That's not what Joseph meant. God has always been God, in the sense that God = God, but our Father in heaven hasn't always been the person have referred to as God, just as I am not the person who people refer to as God now even though at some point in the future there will be people who will refer to me as God.

I know it sounds strange to say that, but if you correctly understand the concept I am trying to share with you then you will correctly understand what Joseph really meant.

I can't fathom how God (as I have been taught to understand) and these laws can be one as Ahab suggested.

There was never a beginning to God in the sense that there was ever a first God, and just as God is eternal, as a kind of being, there have always been those qualities and characteristics which characterize both who and what God really is.

For example, justice has been around for as long as God (as a kind of being) has been around, because God (as a kind of being) has always been just. You can't have one without the other, otherwise there would be no justice in God, and there would be no justice without God (as a kind of being) in all of existence.

SOME kind of being has to be the GREATEST kind of being in all of existence, to compensate for the LEAST OF THE GREATEST being in all of existence, and the greatest kind of being in all of existence is what we refer to as "God".

I'll leave it to you to figure out which being in all of existence is the least of the greatest. Take your time.

I want to believe that God is all encompassing through our lives. I want to think he is the architect of the absolutes. To me, that is a God.

The absolute BEST, yes. The absolute WORST is somebody else.

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That's not what Joseph meant. God has always been God, in the sense that God = God, but our Father in heaven hasn't always been the person have referred to as God, just as I am not the person who people refer to as God now even though at some point in the future there will be people who will refer to me as God.

OK, something clicked... I think. You are saying God is a calling? Like Prophet? The calling carries an implied power within it and the man when assuming the role of that calling (and the responsibility) receives added blessings and power and keys?

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Ahab,

What is the difference between appeasing oneself and praying to oneself?

Look in a dictionary or thesaurus to find the meaning of the words "appease" and "pray".

There can be and often is some association between what those 2 different words refer to, but "appeasing" doesn't refer to the same exact thing that "praying" refers to.

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OK, something clicked... I think. You are saying God is a calling? Like Prophet? The calling carries an implied power within it and the man when assuming the role of that calling (and the responsibility) receives added blessings and power and keys?

Not really, but that can be a helpful way of grasping the concept.

God is what God is, by nature, and we are already God by nature by being the literal children of God, our Father.

That doesn't mean we are as perfect as God, our Father in heaven, right now, though.

I think of there being varying degrees of Godhood, with each degree proportionate to how much we are as perfect as our Father in heaven, and with the word/name/title "God" often reserved for those who are as perfect as he is.

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Look in a dictionary or thesaurus to find the meaning of the words "appease" and "pray".

There can be and often is some association between what those 2 different words refer to, but "appeasing" doesn't refer to the same exact thing that "praying" refers to.

I understand what you mean. I still see a striking parallel between the Trinity doctrine and the character of God as taught by Joseph Smith.

Trinity: Jesus and God: Jesus prayed to God and there is one God

Joseph Smith: underlying laws of life and God: God appeased justice and used the eternal laws of physics but is one with these laws

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Here is my take on God and physics and your questions. First let me say that I believe that God lives by laws that we do not fully comprehend. His law is Celestial law and it is of a higher order than the law that we observe in the Telestial world. So a complete answer to all of your questions may not be possible in this life. However the following answers a lot of these questions for me:

(D&C 88:4-28) "This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son
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I understand what you mean. I still see a striking parallel between the Trinity doctrine and the character of God as taught by Joseph Smith.

I do too. I see more agreement than most people realize, with the Trinity doctrine, as most people understand it, simply minus some teachings which Joseph was adding to it while he tried to correct the erroneous parts of that doctrine.
Trinity: Jesus and God: Jesus prayed to God and there is one God

One God, but more than one person who is God.

Joseph Smith: underlying laws of life and God: God appeased justice and used the eternal laws of physics but is one with these laws

Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, appeased the demands of justice and used the eternal laws of (true) physics, and God is one with the (true) laws which govern all of existence.

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Here is my take on God and physics and your questions....Hope this helps.

Thanks Lightbearer. It does help. Especially this statement from D&C:

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons; And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets

These statements remind me of 1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

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Is a belief in God as a spirit that encompasses all things (i.e. underlying laws/science) in conflict with LDS doctrines? What if we look at the idea of God as an exalted human being in a spiritual sense?

A spirit is the essence of a person, and I see no conflict with truth and the idea that God, as well as each one of us, is a spirit tabernacled with a body.
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