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The Hopi, Ammonites, Gadiantons or Both


nosmelone

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I just want to throw this out as a question because I am extremely interested (and fascinated) with the Hopi, I recently returned from watching some of their dance ceremonies on First Mesa (Walpi, Sichimovi, Tewa, Hano area). If the Hopi are possible descendants of either Lamanites or Nephites (a mixture of both to some degree) from the Book of Mormon would it be safer to mentally catagorize them more as possible descendants of the Ammonites, since they were both a peaceful people who had migrations from South America (Meso-America). Or would it be safer to assume they were closer to Gadianton Robbers since they also would have migrated from the Meso-America region and according to Brigham Young and numerous other early church leaders the Southern Utah area was previously occupied by Gadianton Robbers.

In 1861, Brigham Young spoke in the tabernacle at Salt Lake City and said,

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I just want to throw this out as a question because I am extremely interested (and fascinated) with the Hopi, I recently returned from watching some of their dance ceremonies on First Mesa (Walpi, Sichimovi, Tewa, Hano area). If the Hopi are possible descendants of either Lamanites or Nephites (a mixture of both to some degree) from the Book of Mormon would it be safer to mentally catagorize them more as possible descendants of the Ammonites, since they were both a peaceful people who had migrations from South America (Meso-America). Or would it be safer to assume they were closer to Gadianton Robbers since they also would have migrated from the Meso-America region and according to Brigham Young and numerous other early church leaders the Southern Utah area was previously occupied by Gadianton Robbers.

In 1861, Brigham Young spoke in the tabernacle at Salt Lake City and said,

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I suggest Book of the Hopi, which is deep enough for most purposes. They are a fascinating people. Lots of Mormon/Hopi faith promoting rumors circling by those endowed persons who've actually witnessed the Kiva ceremonies. Nothing specific, but definitely compelling.

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... I just find the Hopi fascinating and would appreciate any info that can be shared about them.

hi nosmelone,

I went to High School in Gallup, NM and played basketball with Navajos against the Hopi. My father was a hydraulic engineer for the Navajo Tribe while we lived in Gallup-- helping them put in water systems on their reservation.

Later, I lived in Page, Arizona as a home builder. Our business went to pot at one point because interest rates went to 20%. We then decided to try to sell homes on the "relocation" program, which was Government funded.

The Hopi reservation is an island right in the middle of the Navajo reservation, and there had never been a definite boundary between the two tribes, so finally the BIA or someone decided on a border-- and then agreed to RELOCATE any native who was living on the wrong side of the new border over to the side they belonged on. This included buying them a new home, which contractors such as us would build.

At one point I was with a Navajo returned LDS missionary down by the Hopi reservation seeking to find those being relocated and then to sell them a home. We were driving along, and along the rode was a car stopped with a flat tire. It was extremely hot, but a skimpily dressed white girl was out trying to change the tire. But also, a couple of drunk Hopi guys had stopped and were talking to her.

We stopped, and the Navajo I was with immediately began talking to these Hopi in English, and I could feel the tension. The hair on the back of my neck stood up, and I began to really worry at the intense animosity I could feel existed there.

We finally went on, but I later asked someone I knew that had a lot to do with the native people. He confirmed that the Navajo and Hopi often have a deep natural animosity toward each other.

I would tend to believe that the Navajo are mainly a people that came from Siberia, while the Hopi have Lamanite blood in them. They have very different cultures. There continues to be disputes over the relocation plan.

Richard

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I would tend to believe that the Navajo are mainly a people that came from Siberia, while the Hopi have Lamanite blood in them. They have very different cultures. There continues to be disputes over the relocation plan.

The Hopi tell the story of the refugees, coming in ones and twos, hungry and desolate, whom they fed and housed and nursed. Later whole families, then tribes, then a deluge descended upon them, and for good cause they named these newcomers "The Headbashers." They retain that name among the Hopi today, notwithstanding they call themselves Dineh, The People.

Oh my, yes. There is animosity.

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would it be safer to mentally catagorize them more as possible descendants of the Ammonites, since they were both a peaceful people who had migrations from South America (Meso-America).

Why assume that the Ammonites kept their peacefulness beyond Mormon and Moroni's time?

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There is animosity between several of the native american tribes, some if which goes back for generations. When I was working for the Northern Cheyenne tribe in Montana one summer Ifound that the Cheyenne and the Crow have a lot of animosity between them. Somewhat reminiscient of the Hatfields and McCoys in appalacia.

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they were both a peaceful people who had migrations from South America (Meso-America).

The Hopi characterize themselves as a peaceful people. They don't like to talk about things like their late 1700s massacre of all the men at Awatovi, a Hopi village that had converted to Christianity. My dissertation is dealing with conflict and alliance among people the Hopi believe are ancestral to some of their clans who lived in the 1300s and 1400s. Even though my research is focused on alliance and not warfare, some of the Hopi tribal representatives held my project with the BLM for 18 months because they felt that my project was trying to prove that their ancestors participated in warfare. Although it is important for the Hopi to think of themselves and their ancestors as peaceful people, history and archaeology tell us that seasons of war and violence did occur.

Although the majority of this question is completely speculative maybe someone maybe able to shed some light or some opinions that may help. I have an Uncle who served among the Hopi 55 years ago and he tells the story of one of the Chiefs in Old Oraibi who's wife was a strong member (LDS) and he wasn't. One day while holding a sacrament meeting they invited him to share his feelings on the Book of Mormon and he shared many comparisons between the Hopi and many of the stories in the Book. He then told the missionarys that this is his book, meaning a book of my people and basically bore testimony of it. My Uncle and his companion were invited into the Kiva in which they were able to see some of their sacred ceremonies. Of course he has covenanted not to share anything relating to what he experienced there and he has been true to that covenant. I just find the Hopi fascinating and would appreciate any info that can be shared about them.

The Hopis are much more careful about who they allow the uninitiated to observe in the private kiva ceremonies, though much was written down a hundred years ago. Whitey doesn't get to see kiva ceremonies any more. A friend is actually working on a paper today arguing that Hopi members of the Church tend to come from low-ranking clans without ritual power, and that their association with white people and participation in Church ceremonies are more attractive to the people who are not part of the center of Hopi ritual life.

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I suggest Book of the Hopi, which is deep enough for most purposes. They are a fascinating people. Lots of Mormon/Hopi faith promoting rumors circling by those endowed persons who've actually witnessed the Kiva ceremonies. Nothing specific, but definitely compelling.

I am actually reading this book right now. I read Hotevilla Hopi shrine of the covenant, Microcosm of the world by Thomas E. Mails when it was suggested by Nibley. I like the book but it seemed to mainly focus on the tensions between the Hopi Tribal Council and the Hopi traditionals. I would agree with you the Book of the Hopi seems to share much more information about the actual ceremonies, which I find very interesting.

Volgadon, your right, my thinking that the People of Ammons righteousness endured beyond Mormon and Moroni's time is a complete assumption. But I would imagine that an experience such as that would somehow remain in the history of that people. It also states in the Book of Mormon that they did remain righteous, but it doesn't state necessarily that it went beyond Moroni's time. We know that the people of Ammon were part of the people who migrated North, we also know that they were a very industrious people who did build their homes and cities out of cement. This sounds a lot like the various pueblos throughout Northern Mexico and Southern United States. We know that were they went didn't have many trees, thus they used cement and allowed all trees to grow to full maturity. This may explain in part why the Hopi and other pueblos are such people of the earth. Not to mention the promises they recieved from Masaw about taking care of their promised land. I along with Nibley and I'm sure many others believe this to be in regards to the promises in 3 Nephi to the remaining Nephites and Lamanites from the Savior Jesus Christ regarding this land. There are just so many similarities between these two groups that it leads me to believe they could be one in the same. I guess I first heard this theory by Dr. Jerry Ainsworth in his book, "The Life and Travels of Mormon and Moroni". Anyways I guess you can see why it is so fascinating.

On the tensions between the Hopi and the Navajo, I have seen this first hand myself. I have a brother in law who is Navajo and they own land on Black Mesa. I've spent a bit of time with his family and heard of the tensions with the Hopi especially when I shared some of my research that I have been doing on the Hopi. I love the Navajo as well but I would also assume that they are part of the tribes from Siberia as well. They were surprisingly open with me about the Hopi and spoke of previously trading sheep with them for corn and squash many years ago, but this tradition has long stopped.

In my time with the Hopi (which isn't very much time) they seem to be an interesting people. Most of the youth seem to be wanna be gangsters, but then again the Hopi rez is probably the closest thing to a 3rd world country that I've been too. I did get a lot of scornful looks while attending some of their ceremonies that are open to the public, but as a 6'3 white guy I do stick out like a sore thumb. Those Hopi who I have been able to actually speak too though have been extremely open and very nice. When my family and I were attending the dances on First Mesa we first drove all the way to the top of the Mesa and found it packed with cars and along with many other people we had to find parking further down the Mesa. Upon driving through the village we did get a lot of bad looks but as soon as I parked my car an Hopi man named Steve Satalla came and introduced himself to me and gave me an open welcome to Hopi. This along with some of the promises made to me in my patriarchal blessing calmed my nerves a bit. Upon walking through the village I noticed I was (along with my kids) the only white person out of about a thousand or so people crammed into there village center. I loved every minute of it though, my wife is hispanic so she didn't stick out like me. I am young and look a lot younger than I actually am so I think a lot of the younger gangster Hopi kids looked at me like I was there age, thus the mean looks. I must admit that it was almost exactly like Nibley described his first experience among the Hopi. At first the people kind of starred at my family and me which was fine but once the dancing started a few of them heard me explaining to my wife what some things stood for and this seemed to calm them a bit eventually a few warmed up to us. My kids were playing with a few Hopi kids as well. Anyways we were invited back for the Homecoming ceremony in July. I hope to be able to adjust my work schedule to be able to attend.

I would look at the Awotovi incodent in similar light that I look upon the Moutain Meadows Massacre to some degree. I know they do have a history of waring but as far as I can tell it is mostly in defense other that a few sparce incodents. I could be wrong in that assumption though. In listening to Nibleys experience among the Hopi it seems that they are a mixture of both Lamanite and Nephite (which basically all people in the Book of Mormon were around that time, except Mormon himself). Dr. Jerry Ainsworth also shared some interesting ideas about Mormons teachings actually being primarily among the people in the North since he specifically says that all the people in Zerahemla were basically wicked but he chose to be their leader anyway. If this is the case he would probably have spent a lot of time among the People of Ammon. He also shares some ideas that some of the stories shared in the book "He Walked The Americas" could have easily been referring to Moroni rather than the Savior himself. Of course all this is speculation again but it does give a bit of direction for those who are interested like me. I appreciate the insights shared with me thus far. I would like to eventually do some sort of a research paper or something on it but like Nibley I worry about sharing too much info on what could be considered sacred in their ceremonies as well as LDS temple ceremonies. It seems to be a fine line on both sides that I don't want to cross.

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hi nosmelone,

I went to High School in Gallup, NM and played basketball with Navajos against the Hopi. My father was a hydraulic engineer for the Navajo Tribe while we lived in Gallup-- helping them put in water systems on their reservation.

Later, I lived in Page, Arizona as a home builder. Our business went to pot at one point because interest rates went to 20%. We then decided to try to sell homes on the "relocation" program, which was Government funded.

The Hopi reservation is an island right in the middle of the Navajo reservation, and there had never been a definite boundary between the two tribes, so finally the BIA or someone decided on a border-- and then agreed to RELOCATE any native who was living on the wrong side of the new border over to the side they belonged on. This included buying them a new home, which contractors such as us would build.

At one point I was with a Navajo returned LDS missionary down by the Hopi reservation seeking to find those being relocated and then to sell them a home. We were driving along, and along the rode was a car stopped with a flat tire. It was extremely hot, but a skimpily dressed white girl was out trying to change the tire. But also, a couple of drunk Hopi guys had stopped and were talking to her.

We stopped, and the Navajo I was with immediately began talking to these Hopi in English, and I could feel the tension. The hair on the back of my neck stood up, and I began to really worry at the intense animosity I could feel existed there.

We finally went on, but I later asked someone I knew that had a lot to do with the native people. He confirmed that the Navajo and Hopi often have a deep natural animosity toward each other.

I would tend to believe that the Navajo are mainly a people that came from Siberia, while the Hopi have Lamanite blood in them. They have very different cultures. There continues to be disputes over the relocation plan.

Richard

eRichard,

Thanks for sharing that information. I grew up inbetween Salt Lake City and Pocatello ID (back and forth) and spent a lot of time on the Fort Hall Bannock Shoshone Reservation, this was before I was an active member. I really wish that I was still in touch with a few of the people who I knew there because it would be interesting comparing their traditions. I'm jealous that you have been able to spend so much time around the Hopi. I do plan on spending more time around the Hopi in the future. I know that its not the safest place to be but Lord willing I think there is still a lot to be learned from the history of this people.

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I don't know how your ever going to get anything so sacred out of the Hopis. I was watching a program that had a brief segment on the religious practices of the Hopi's on NGC few months back. They hold just as sacred as we do temple. All I can say is good luck on getting deep inside of the rituals. Your going to have to become a Hopi. Then you as well cannot share.

Ironic isn't it?

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I would look at the Awotovi incodent in similar light that I look upon the Moutain Meadows Massacre to some degree. I know they do have a history of waring but as far as I can tell it is mostly in defense other that a few sparce incodents. I could be wrong in that assumption though.

The Hopi would agree with you that Awatovi was an isolated incident. This is not what the archaeological record tells us, however.

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I don't know how your ever going to get anything so sacred out of the Hopis. I was watching a program that had a brief segment on the religious practices of the Hopi's on NGC few months back. They hold just as sacred as we do temple. All I can say is good luck on getting deep inside of the rituals. Your going to have to become a Hopi. Then you as well cannot share.

Ironic isn't it?

Your right it is Ironic, I actually don't want to get deep into their sacred ceremonies although I admit it probably would be interesting. I don't even know that much about my own (LDS) sacred temple ceremonies. I would prefer to be able to compare their past (possibly Anasazi) with the Anti Nephi Lehites (People of Ammon). I think there are already some interesting coorilations between the two. The problem seems to be the limited information available on both the Anasazi and the remenants of the People of Ammon. Maybe this will have to wait until more of the records are made available to us (sealed portion of the plates). But it doesn't hurt to search for these things now, " knock and it shall be open".

The Hopi would agree with you that Awatovi was an isolated incident. This is not what the archaeological record tells us, however.

Your exactly right, I guess its situations like this that lead me to believe that instead of being remenants of the People of Ammon they actually may be part of the supposed Gadianton Robbers who infested the hills in Southern Utah (four corners area). If I had to speculate on this I would assume they are a people who were once enlightened, as the People of Ammon were (they do have temple ceremonies or Kiva ceremonies and where did they get them?) and have since fallen away to some degree. Whenever they do return to the truth, I've heard it said that they will return in one group the same way they migrate. I hope this is the case.

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Your right it is Ironic, I actually don't want to get deep into their sacred ceremonies although I admit it probably would be interesting. I don't even know that much about my own (LDS) sacred temple ceremonies. I would prefer to be able to compare their past (possibly Anasazi) with the Anti Nephi Lehites (People of Ammon). I think there are already some interesting coorilations between the two. The problem seems to be the limited information available on both the Anasazi and the remenants of the People of Ammon. Maybe this will have to wait until more of the records are made available to us (sealed portion of the plates). But it doesn't hurt to search for these things now, " knock and it shall be open".

Your exactly right, I guess its situations like this that lead me to believe that instead of being remenants of the People of Ammon they actually may be part of the supposed Gadianton Robbers who infested the hills in Southern Utah (four corners area). If I had to speculate on this I would assume they are a people who were once enlightened, as the People of Ammon were (they do have temple ceremonies or Kiva ceremonies and where did they get them?) and have since fallen away to some degree. Whenever they do return to the truth, I've heard it said that they will return in one group the same way they migrate. I hope this is the case.

Why do they have to be either? There were more inhabitans of the Americas (north & south) who were not Book of Mormon peoples. They could have been impacted by migratory BoM people without being directly connected.

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Your right it is Ironic, I actually don't want to get deep into their sacred ceremonies although I admit it probably would be interesting. I don't even know that much about my own (LDS) sacred temple ceremonies. I would prefer to be able to compare their past (possibly Anasazi) with the Anti Nephi Lehites (People of Ammon). I think there are already some interesting coorilations between the two. The problem seems to be the limited information available on both the Anasazi and the remenants of the People of Ammon. Maybe this will have to wait until more of the records are made available to us (sealed portion of the plates). But it doesn't hurt to search for these things now, " knock and it shall be open".

We know quite a bit about Ancestral Puebloan people (aka Anasazi). They don't have very much in common with any of the people described in the Book of Mormon. Much of what we know about the Lehites can be compared to the archaeological record. What correlations are you seeing?

Your exactly right, I guess its situations like this that lead me to believe that instead of being remenants of the People of Ammon they actually may be part of the supposed Gadianton Robbers who infested the hills in Southern Utah (four corners area). If I had to speculate on this I would assume they are a people who were once enlightened, as the People of Ammon were (they do have temple ceremonies or Kiva ceremonies and where did they get them?) and have since fallen away to some degree. Whenever they do return to the truth, I've heard it said that they will return in one group the same way they migrate. I hope this is the case.

Couldn't they just be Native Americans with an indigenously developed ritual life?

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Couldn't they just be Native Americans with an indigenously developed ritual life?

Yes. However, there are some who have to see Nephites and Lamanites every place there is a Native American. I don't happen to be one of those.

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We know quite a bit about Ancestral Puebloan people (aka Anasazi). They don't have very much in common with any of the people described in the Book of Mormon. Much of what we know about the Lehites can be compared to the archaeological record. What correlations are you seeing?

Couldn't they just be Native Americans with an indigenously developed ritual life?

I believe he's looking for common links in the sacred ceremonies of the Hopi in conjunction with same ritual temple practices that we might share. Like I earlier said and unless Natl Geo poorly related on TV. They hold their ceremonial rights sacred and do not share with outsiders. It's a common link to our temple procedures as in regards to sacredness. He is also wondering. Do i have that right nosmelone?

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I would prefer to be able to compare their past (possibly Anasazi) with the Anti Nephi Lehites (People of Ammon).

The correct name is "Anti-Nephi-Lehies" (no "T", and two hyphens).

The difference is that they were named after the region call Nephi-Lehi. Their king was (eventually) Anti-Nephi-Lehi (who was not Lamoni).

Lehi

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We know quite a bit about Ancestral Puebloan people (aka Anasazi). They don't have very much in common with any of the people described in the Book of Mormon. Much of what we know about the Lehites can be compared to the archaeological record. What correlations are you seeing?

Couldn't they just be Native Americans with an indigenously developed ritual life?

/quote]

I suppose they could be but you have to admit they do have quite a bit in common with remenants with the Nephites and Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. Nibley said they do have the temple ceremony and and then posed the question, how did they get theirs? According to Frank Waters in the Book of the Hopi, he states,

The Hopi's were without a doubt once a part of this great complex, whose perimeter was gradually extened northward through Chihuahua to the Four Corners area of the United States.

This puts them in the correct area for the migrating people in the BOM. The Hopi's believe that the Maya, Aztecs and Toltecs were abhorrent Hopi who failed to complete their four fold migrations and remained in Middle America and built large cities. Frank Waters said this may be a case of the tail wagging the dog. The Hopi speak of migrating from the red city down south. Nibley said this is more than likely Zarahemla. Dr. Jerry Ainsworth stated that this may be teotihuacan because this city was built with cement and was built without any natural borders to stop invading people, this would be the design of a peaceful people.

We know in the Hopi origin myths they speak of 7 planets, to whom they sing ritualistic songs in a low voice (Also in Waters, Book of the Hopi). This compared with the Mayan origins of coming from 7 womb-caves or ravines. This is ironic as well since we know upon the Lamanites conversion there were seven cities that eventually were gouped together to become the Anti Nephi Lehies as well this is in common with the 7 tribes of Lehi. Lamanites, Lemuelites, Nephites(Sam is included with Nephi), Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites and Ishmaelites. These tribes remained the structure even after the political structure failed, this may have set the standard for future organizations considering that Alma eventually organized 7 churches in Zarahemla. These are just a few noticable things without going into the sacred ceremonies out of repect for the Hopi and LDS Temple ceremonies. There may also be ties between the corn (maize) migrations from south to north as well without going into specific dates. Anyway these may not be descendants of the Anti Nephi Lehies but I find the search intriguing and think they do have a lot in common thus far.

I believe he's looking for common links in the sacred ceremonies of the Hopi in conjunction with same ritual temple practices that we might share. Like I earlier said and unless Natl Geo poorly related on TV. They hold their ceremonial rights sacred and do not share with outsiders. It's a common link to our temple procedures as in regards to sacredness. He is also wondering. Do i have that right nosmelone?

You do have it right. I do wish I could somehow find more correlations between their sacred ceremonies and the LDS temple ceremonies, but I agree whole heartidly that the chances to that are slim to none unless there is someway to get in good with the Hopi, but I know that the pahana isn't really something they like to put their trust in since they have been burned in the past by the white people.

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ame='shrff' date='14 May 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1273894700' post='1208849947']

We know quite a bit about Ancestral Puebloan people (aka Anasazi). They don't have very much in common with any of the people described in the Book of Mormon. Much of what we know about the Lehites can be compared to the archaeological record. What correlations are you seeing?

Couldn't they just be Native Americans with an indigenously developed ritual life?

/quote]

You do have it right. I do wish I could somehow find more correlations between their sacred ceremonies and the LDS temple ceremonies, but I agree whole heartidly that the chances to that are slim to none unless there is someway to get in good with the Hopi, but I know that the pahana isn't really something they like to put their trust in since they have been burned in the past by the white people.

Interesting. What does pahana translate to in english?

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Interesting. What does pahana translate to in english?

Lost white brother. In their mythology they are to meet up with their lost white brother who would give them the tokens of recognition upon meeting them again. The old story has it that when the proud Visigoths of Espana met the Pueblo people, the latter held out their hands to receive the token. They gave 'em some coins, confirming for all time that those guys weren't Pahana.

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Lost white brother. In their mythology they are to meet up with their lost white brother who would give them the tokens of recognition upon meeting them again. The old story has it that when the proud Visigoths of Espana met the Pueblo people, the latter held out their hands to receive the token. They gave 'em some coins, confirming for all time that those guys weren't Pahana.

Hmm...close to Hawaiian. I wonder if it's pronounced the same way.

"Ohana" means family, relative or kin group; related. "Ohana nui" is extended family; clan

I also believe it was either nosmelone or shrff who awhile back had an avatar with a petroglyph that was very exact in design like the Hawaiian versions.

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Lost white brother. In their mythology they are to meet up with their lost white brother who would give them the tokens of recognition upon meeting them again. The old story has it that when the proud Visigoths of Espana met the Pueblo people, the latter held out their hands to receive the token. They gave 'em some coins, confirming for all time that those guys weren't Pahana.

Yeah, this is interesting because in Thomas Cryers book about the Israelite Nation and the Native Americans he speculates that they could be referring to 3 lost white brothers, this instantly brings to mind the three Nephites, Jerry Ainsworth in speaking about the history of Chichen Itza was of a people who never appointed kings, instead it was ruled by "three brothers" with none superior to the other. The three brothers were also called "Lords of Fire" and 4Nephi 1:32 shows why this could make sense, because the three Nephites posessed power over fire. There geneology is incomplete , but the original father of these people is redorded as Lord Jawbone, and any Bible dictionary will tell you Lehi means Jawbone. This may be interesting but I would venture that the Hopi lost white brother is probably more of an account of being visited by the Savior as in 3rd Nephi and other correlating accounts such as "He Walked the America" by L. Taylor Hanson. But as Dr. Ainsworth stated earlier some of the accounts in the latter could be referring to Moroni as he wandered the Americas, probably teaching what remaining righteous people he could. Either way it is still very interesting that the Hopi do recognize this lost white brother.

Hmm...close to Hawaiian. I wonder if it's pronounced the same way.

"Ohana" means family, relative or kin group; related. "Ohana nui" is extended family; clan

I also believe it was either nosmelone or shrff who awhile back had an avatar with a petroglyph that was very exact in design like the Hawaiian versions.

That is very interesting, my brother speaks some Hawaiian, Tongan and Somoan...he served his mission in Hawaii and was one of the few missionaries there who actually took the time to learn the languange seriously. It wasn't me who had the avatar, but I would like to see it.

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