Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 An interesting article on DNA testing of indigenous peoples that attempts todetermine their origins...Attention Tom Murphy and former Bishop Sutherlundhttp://www.ipcb.org/The Human Genome Diversity Project and Its Implications For Indigenous PeoplesDebra HarryNorthern Paiute Nation, NevadaThe Human Genome Diversity (HGD) Project is an internationalconsortium of scientists, universities, governments and otherinterests in North America and Europe organized to take blood, tissuesamples (cheek scrapings or saliva), and hair roots from hundreds ofso called "endangered" indigenous communities around the world.On the assumption that indigenous peoples are inevitably going todisappear and some populations are facing extinction sooner thanlater, scientists are gathering DNA samples from the living peoplesbefore they disappear. The HGD Project refers to indigenouspopulations as "isolates of historic interest (IHIs)" and expresses asense of urgency in collecting the DNA samples of indigenous peoplesin order to "avoid the irreversible loss of precious geneticinformation" due to the danger of physical extinction.The blood samples taken by the HGD Project will be "immortalized"for future study utilizing a technique of cell conservation whichkeeps certain cells of an organism alive and capable of multiplying,thus generating unlimited amounts of the organism's DNA. Theimmortalized cell lines will be stored at various gene banks, locatedmostly in the US.Research teams are going into indigenous communities to collectsamples from 50 persons from each of 722 identified populations.When asked about the scientific rationale for selecting 50 personsper group, Dr. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, a principal founder of the project,stated "One person can bleed 50 people and get on the airplane inone day." 1Indigenous Communities Targeted for DNA CollectionAfrica 165 South America 114Asia 212 North America 107Oceania 101 Europe 23TOTAL 722Source: RAFI-Canada 2Known in some places as the "Vampire Project," the HGD Project wasformally adopted by the Human Genome Organization (HUGO) inJanuary 1994. HUGO is a multi-national, multi-billion dollar initiativeby scientists which seeks to sequence the DNA in the entire humangenetic structure. The HGD Project seeks to map the variance, that is,the genetic differences of groups that differ from the monotypegenome that will be identified by the HUGO effort.The HGD Project states that it will make the genetic samples availableto "the public." This policy of open access will make the data andmaterials available to any one requesting it, in perpetuity. However,there will be minimal control of access to the genetic materials oncethey are stored in the gene banks. Scientists will need only todemonstrate the validity of their scientific research in order to gainaccess to the samples.Prior Informed Consent and the Right to RefuseAnthropologists, linguists or other individuals trusted by thetargeted group help provide entree to the targeted communities.Although the HGD Project will seek the consent of the individuals andpopulations to be sampled, what constitutes "prior informedconsent?" Who is authorized to give consent? Should consent berequired only by the individual being sampled, or also include thegoverning body of that particular indigenous nation? Can consent begranted by government officials of the nation-state in which theindigenous nation is located? How will the project be explained inthe local language? Will the full scope of the project and the shortand long term implications and potential uses of the samples be fullydisclosed? Will potential donors be fully informed of the potentialfor profits that may be made from their genetic samples? Andfinally, will a decision not to consent be respected in full?The HGD Project North American Committee has secured a grant fromthe J.D. and C.T. MacArthur Foundation to develop a model protocol(rules) for the collection of genetic samples from indigenous groups.Project organizers plan to meet with indigenous people to explain theproject. This process will help project organizers to identify keyconcerns of indigenous people, but will primarily be used to seektheir cooperation in the project.Creation and EvolutionThe HGD Project states that the research will help reconstruct thehistory of the world's populations, address questions about thehistory of human evolution and migration patterns, and identify theorigins of existing populations.While the HGD Project is looking for answers about human evolution,indigenous peoples already possess strong beliefs and knowledgeregarding their creation and histories.The cosmologies of indigenous people are environmentally andculturally specific and are not congruent with popular Westerntheories, such as the Bering Strait migration theory or Darwin'stheory of evolution. The assumptions posed by the HGD Project thatthe origins and/or migrations of indigenous populations can be'discovered' and scientifically 'answered' is insulting to groups whoalready have strong cultural beliefs regarding their origins.Questions arise concerning the impact of the findings on indigenouscommunities. For example, will theories of migration be used tochallenge aboriginal territorial claims or rights to land?Medical and Military ScienceThe project will also gather information of potential or actual medicalinterest, possibly leading to medical applications. In terms ofreciprocal benefits to donor groups, the HGD Project will offer tokenbenefits such as providing medicines, or treating easily diagnosablemedical problems.While medical application may stem from the eventual research,manipulation, and commercialization of the genetic materials byscientists and developers, it is likely that only those who can affordexpensive therapies will benefit.3 The proposition that medicalapplications will be developed to treat diseases is an overstatedclaim by the HGD Project, designed to seduce the participation ofsubjects based upon the false hope for medical miracles. The HGDProject is not mandated to develop medical applications of the data.The mandate of the project is simply to collect, database, andmaintain the genetic samples and data.Comments?Bernard Link to comment
handys003 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 An interesting article on DNA testing of indigenous peoples that attempts todetermine their origins...Attention Tom Murphy and former Bishop Sutherlundhttp://www.ipcb.org/Comments?BernardHeard nothing here in Hawaii about such. Don't seem to find a link who they have on the endangered list. I wonder if some of my Hawaiian ohana has been contacted? Link to comment
Ariarates Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 While the HGD Project is looking for answers about human evolution, indigenous peoples already possess strong beliefs and knowledge regarding their creation and histories.They do indeed posess strong beliefs, but I wouldn't call it "knowledge" in the scientific sense.The assumptions posed by the HGD Project that the origins and/or migrations of indigenous populations can be 'discovered' and scientifically 'answered' is insulting to groups who already have strong cultural beliefs regarding their origins.I find this a silly statement, although I am sure that there will be people with "strong cultural beliefs" in this project who will be insulted when these beliefs are challenged by science and reason. What else is new.If we paid attention to those people, we'd still think the earth is flat, wouldn't we? Link to comment
charity Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 While the HGD Project is looking for answers about human evolution, indigenous peoples already possess strong beliefs and knowledge regarding their creation and histories.They do indeed posess strong beliefs, but I wouldn't call it "knowledge" in the scientific sense.The assumptions posed by the HGD Project that the origins and/or migrations of indigenous populations can be 'discovered' and scientifically 'answered' is insulting to groups who already have strong cultural beliefs regarding their origins.I find this a silly statement, although I am sure that there will be people with "strong cultural beliefs" in this project who will be insulted when these beliefs are challenged by science and reason. What else is new.If we paid attention to those people, we'd still think the earth is flat, wouldn't we?I find this kind of condescending attitude that technologically advanced cultures are superior to less "scientifically" advanced cultures to be arrogant and. . . . stupid. The worth of a culture or people is not determined by how many computers the average citizen owns. "Those people?" Link to comment
Ariarates Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I find this kind of condescending attitude that technologically advanced cultures are superior to less "scientifically" advanced cultures to be arrogant and. . . . stupid. The worth of a culture or people is not determined by how many computers the average citizen owns. "Those people?"Who said anything about technology and computers, or even the value of a culture? The premise in the OP's article is that it is insulting for scientists to study the origins of certain populations if these groups already have strong cultural beliefs. It's not the indigenous peoples that I think are silly, but this premise. With "those people" I meant the people who feel insulted when their beliefs are challenged, not the populations studied as a whole. Link to comment
charity Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Who said anything about technology and computers, or even the value of a culture? The premise in the OP's article is that it is insulting for scientists to study the origins of certain populations if these groups already have strong cultural beliefs. It's not the indigenous peoples that I think are silly, but this premise. With "those people" I meant the people who feel insulted when their beliefs are challenged, not the populations studied as a whole.Okay. I apologize for thinking you were being condescending. Link to comment
Ariarates Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Hey, no problem, it's easy to misunderstand eachother on internet forums. Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 This reminds me a bit of the "prime directive", with the scientists reluctant to enlighted the superstitious indigenes with their superior knowledge in case it disrupts and even destroys that culture. Link to comment
CV75 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 An interesting article on DNA testing of indigenous peoples that attempts to determine their origins...Sounds like virtual colonization for scientific purposes. Would it be bigoted to use this data to prevent the extinction of a bloodline simply because of the uniqueness of its DNA? Or not to use this data to prevent its extinction? Link to comment
ERayR Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 While the HGD Project is looking for answers about human evolution, indigenous peoples already possess strong beliefs and knowledge regarding their creation and histories.They do indeed posess strong beliefs, but I wouldn't call it "knowledge" in the scientific sense.The assumptions posed by the HGD Project that the origins and/or migrations of indigenous populations can be 'discovered' and scientifically 'answered' is insulting to groups who already have strong cultural beliefs regarding their origins.I find this a silly statement, although I am sure that there will be people with "strong cultural beliefs" in this project who will be insulted when these beliefs are challenged by science and reason. What else is new.If we paid attention to those people, we'd still think the earth is flat, wouldn't we?A very elitist and arrogant attitude you have there. Care to back up and show some respect for those who might think differently than you? Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Heard nothing here in Hawaii about such. Don't seem to find a link who they have on the endangered list. I wonder if some of my Hawaiian ohana has been contacted?Drop them a note and ask. Are native Hawaiians included in the genome project?Do they have their own story of their origins? Is it important to them?Bernard Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 While the HGD Project is looking for answers about human evolution, indigenous peoples already possess strong beliefs and knowledge regarding their creation and histories.They do indeed posess strong beliefs, but I wouldn't call it "knowledge" in the scientific sense.And by destroying those "strong beliefs" with "scientific knowledge" they are benefitted how? Who decideswhich beliefs to attack? What are their motives?The assumptions posed by the HGD Project that the origins and/or migrations of indigenous populations can be 'discovered' and scientifically 'answered' is insulting to groups who already have strong cultural beliefs regarding their origins.I find this a silly statement, although I am sure that there will be people with "strong cultural beliefs" in this project who will be insulted when these beliefs are challenged by science and reason. What else is new.As the OP pointed out, this is the reaction of some of those who are the "subjects" of such studies. But who cares? They'reobviously ignorant and need to be confronted by the realities of modern science.If we paid attention to those people, we'd still think the earth is flat, wouldn't we?Yes, I agree that we should ignore the feelings and beliefs of the "subjects" of scientific inquiry. Indigenous societies need to be absorbed into the collective. It is for their own good, right?Bernard Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Sounds like virtual colonization for scientific purposes. Would it be bigoted to use this data to prevent the extinction of a bloodline simply because of the uniqueness of its DNA? Or not to use this data to prevent its extinction?The article raises those very questions. One can understand their anxiety about collecting such data, giventhe results of previous Western intrusions into indigenous cultures. Bernard Link to comment
CV75 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The article raises those very questions. One can understand their anxiety about collecting such data, given the results of previous Western intrusions into indigenous cultures.I should've checked out the link first! Link to comment
Droopy Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The uncompromising cult of multiculturalism looms large in any such endeavor. The Kennewick Man fiasco is the object lesson of the way in which certain fashionable noble savages beloved of certain elements of our culture and government can and will stymie archeological and anthropological scientific study in the name of pc. Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 A well-respected Native American scholar on Western attempts to replace tribal knowledgewith "scientific" knowledge...Indian students today are confronted with the monolith of Western science when they leave the reservationto attend college. In most introductory courses their culture and traditions are derided as mere remnants of a superstitious, stone-age mentality that could not understand or distinguish between the simplest ofpropositions. Additionally, they are taught that science is an objective and precise task performed byspecialists who carefully weigh the propositions that come before them. Nothing could be further fromthe truth...Indian students are further misled by outrageous claims made by science, which suggests thatthe various fields of inquiry, if taken together, represent the sum total of human knowledge...One of the most painful experiences for American Indian students is to come into conflict with the teachings of sciencethat purport to explain phenomena already explained by tribal knowledge and tradition. The assumptionof the Western educational system is that the information dispensed by colleges is always correct, andthat the beliefs and teachings of the tribe are always wrong...While specific answers are required within the context of Western science, we should remember that theseanswers are only a temporary statement that is subject to rejection or further refinement at any time...Power and Place: Indian Education in America. Vine Deloria, Jr. American Indian Gruaduate Center, 2001.Bernard Link to comment
CV75 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 An interesting articleI'm not finding a lot of publication on or by the HGD since 1995 (one thin publication from 2005)--are they really doing much? Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 The uncompromising cult of multiculturalism looms large in any such endeavor. The Kennewick Man fiasco is the object lesson of the way in which certain fashionable noble savages beloved of certain elements of our culture and government can and will stymie archeological and anthropological scientific study in the name of pc.When I was a boy World was better spot. What was so was so, What was not was not. Now I am a man; World have changed a lot. Some things nearly so, Others nearly not. There are times I almost think I am not sure of what I absolutely know. Very often find confusion In conclusion I concluded long ago In my head are many facts That, as a student, I have studied to procure, In my head are many facts... Of which I wish I was more certain I was sure! When my father was a king He was a king who knew exactly what he knew, And his brain was not a thing Forever swinging to and fro and fro and to. Shall I, then be like my father And be willfully unmovable and strong? Or is it better to be right?... Or am I right when I believe I may be wrong? Shall I join with other nations in alliance? If allies are weak, am I not best alone? If allies are strong with power to protect me, Might they not protect me out of all I own? Is a danger to be trusting one another, One will seldom want to do what other wishes;But unless someday somebody trust somebody There'll be nothing left on earth excepting fishes! There are times I almost think Nobody sure of what he absolutely know. Everybody find confusion In conclusion he concluded long ago And it puzzle me to learn That tho' a man may be in doubt of what he know, Very quickly he will fight... He'll fight to prove that what he does not know is so! Oh! Sometimes I think that people going mad! Ah! Sometimes I think that people not so bad! But not matter what I think I must go on living life. As leader of my kingdom I must go forth, Be father to my children and husband to each wife Etcetera, etcetera, and so forth. If my Lord in Heaven Buddha, show the way! Everyday I try to live another day. If my Lord in Heaven Buddha, show the way!Everyday I do my best for one-more day!But...Is a puzzlement!The King of Siam Link to comment
nicolasconnault Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I'm not finding a lot of publication on or by the HGD since 1995 (one thin publication from 2005)--are they really doing much?Maybe they've made an ethical decision and are not releasing their results Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 This reminds me a bit of the "prime directive", with the scientists reluctant to enlighted the superstitious indigenes with their superior knowledge in case it disrupts and even destroys that culture.Indeed! How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farmAfter they've seen Paree'How ya gonna keep 'em away from BroadwayJazzin around and paintin' the townHow ya gonna keep 'em away from harm, that's a mysteryThey'll never want to see a rake or plowAnd who the deuce can parleyvous a cow?How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farmAfter they've seen Paree'Bernard Link to comment
Mark Beesley Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The question, as I understand it, is about whether or not scientific evidence, ala DNA comparisons, could or should trump indigenous traditions about their origins. Supposedly, according to some, DNA comparisons of native Americans with other world cultures shows a relationship to Asiatic people but not Middle-Eastern people. Therefore, the theory goes, the Book of Mormon cannot possibly relate the story of the migration of people from the Middle East to the Americas. Yet, traditions among many South American tribes suggest a migration that the DNA supposedly refutes.It is a curious fact that the ancient Itza Link to comment
katherine the great Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I think the organizers of the Human Genome Project grossly underestimated the challenges they would face from these isolated cultures. I think they have not done enough to reassure these people that the results would not be used for "nefarious" purposes. And it is a crying shame because, in spite of having the technology to do so, we will now probably never have a complete picture of major human migration. Link to comment
CV75 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I think the organizers of the Human Genome Project grossly underestimated the challenges they would face from these isolated cultures. I think they have not done enough to reassure these people that the results would not be used for "nefarious" purposes. And it is a crying shame because, in spite of having the technology to do so, we will now probably never have a complete picture of major human migration.As an aside (not too far off though) I came across this today re: DNa and migration studieshttp://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/02/12/rush.greenland.oldest.human.itn?hpt=C2So there still may be hope. Link to comment
Ariarates Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 And by destroying those "strong beliefs" with "scientific knowledge" they are benefitted how? Who decides which beliefs to attack? What are their motives?Your premise seems to be that scientific investigation in itself constitutes an attack on traditional beliefs. I don't see it that way. However, if scientific knowledge trumps traditional beliefs, I see no harm in the traditional beliefs disappearing. When I'm ill, I'm glad I can go see a doctor and not a medicine man. I would not want to deny "indigenous peoples" the same privilige just because I think their quaint little traditional beliefs should be preserved just because ... , mmm, well, why actually? Link to comment
Ariarates Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A very elitist and arrogant attitude you have there. Care to back up and show some respect for those who might think differently than you?Care to elaborate what you think is elitist and arrogant about my attitude, before I pay you my respects? Link to comment
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