Great Lakes Region Maps and History

[Cold Steel]

Phyllis Olive, on her website, quotes a book entitled Primitive Industry, by H.E. Abbot, to prove that the New York hill was indeed Cumorah. The book, self-published from the looks of it, states:

The Museums in New York state are filled with the instruments of warfare that had been fashioned by the red men and so freely used in that historic area. The opinion is expressed in all those relic halls that western New York was the site of an ancient battlefield. There is more evidence of a well planned defensive warfare in that locality than there is in any other region on the American Continent. It is the opinion of most scholars that the defenses on the drumlin hills were prepared by a people more civilized than the Indians and were exterminated by the inferior race who were still in possession of the country when Columbus discovered this land. (H. E. Abbot. Primitive Industry, pp. 203-288, 415-417.)

She also argues that there is simply no evidence to support widespread warfare amongst the peoples of Mesoamerica, a claim that strikes me as absurd. Yes, it was once thought that the peaceful Maya didn't engage in blood rites and warfare, but then, I once weighed 170 lbs. In short, we know better now that the Maya engaged in long running wars. Yet she maintains, "archaeological efforts have failed to find evidence of warfare in that area," meaning the Mesoamerican area. The specific area was referenced by John Sorenson: "Archeological work done in the area where the final Nephite battles took place - supposing that to be around the Tuxtla Mountains of Veracruz - is not sufficiently detailed to identify evidence of battles."

This seems to be sort of a cheap shot. There is no evidence of which I'm aware that the fields surrounding the New York drumlin were battlefields. Did I miss something?

Great Lakes BOM lands.

I'm not aware of how the New York hill is in the correct place in this geography. There are Mesoamerican model maps all over the place, but the Great Lakes maps seem to be few and far behind.

[Sevenbak]

Though I don't agree with her take about Mesoamerica being devoid of great battlefields, the first of what you quoted sounds very familiar and has been put out there by other historians relating to ancient warfare in Western New York.

Here's a small snippet, of one. It's from an early American historian named Orsamus Turner. The book is called

[Zakuska]

Though I don't agree with her take about Mesoamerica being devoid of great battlefields, the first of what you quoted sounds very familiar and has been put out there by other historians relating to ancient warfare in Western New York.

Here's a small snippet, of one. It's from an early American historian named Orsamus Turner. The book is called

[bjw]

I remember I stumbled upon a website once that said the Book of Mormon may have took place in New York all the way down the east coast to South America via a land mass connecting Florida with Cuba and South America, and the land mass later sank or was wiped out with some kind of volcanic activity. Could it be possible we could have both the Great Lakes region and Mesoamerica as Book of Mormon locales?

Anyway, back to the topic, I have been reading from a book called "Lost Tribes of the Book of Mormon" by Phyllis Carol Olive (the author mentioned earlier by Cold Steel) that asserts that there is evidence of large amounts of people killed around the Hill Cumorah area. The book contains some evidence from the Hopewell and other tribes, and also has some stuff about the soil containing lots of lime from the bones that were buried there during BoM times. Also, there's a good review in the book of some of the relics that have been found in North America. It also mentions Zelph the white Lamanite in one chapter, and uses his existence as support that the BoM took place in North America. Zelph was said to be known from New York to the Rocky Mountains. It's a book worth checking out. I'm not sure how much stock you can put into it, but it's an interesting read.

[Zakuska]

I remember I stumbled upon a website once that said the Book of Mormon may have took place in New York all the way down the east coast to South America via a land mass connecting Florida with Cuba and South America, and the land mass later sank or was wiped out with some kind of volcanic activity. Could it be possible we could have both the Great Lakes region and Mesoamerica as Book of Mormon locales?

Well.. there are supposed to be cities buried at the bottom of lakes all over North and South America. Lake Tiuachana comes to mind. These remind us of the sucken cities at the time of Christs visit.

[Joseph Antley]

Chalk one more book up to Joseph Smith's back woods fertile imagination/Dartmouth library.

No need. Orsamus Turner was an acquaintance of Joseph's when, as a young man, Turner was a newspaper editor in Palmyra. I believe in his same history, Turner writes his recollections of young Joseph and the Smith family. Turner's account of "a war of extermination" likely reflects a popular believe in western New York during that period, of which Joseph Smith would surely have been aware of.

[Sevenbak]

No need. Orsamus Turner was an acquaintance of Joseph's when, as a young man, Turner was a newspaper editor in Palmyra. I believe in his same history, Turner writes his recollections of young Joseph and the Smith family. Turner's account of "a war of extermination" likely reflects a popular believe in western New York during that period, of which Joseph Smith would surely have been aware of.

Interesting. Are you claiming that Orsamus wrote a fictional history book based on some conversation he may have had with Joseph Smith or others? He certainly wasn't a member of the Church. And no, the Holland Purchase work doesn't mention Joseph Smith, it's about the Holland Purchase.

There's a reason there was a prevailing belief about this advanced ancient civilization being exterminated. The evidence was all around them as they settled the area.

You can throw Orsamus out if you want to, not me. He was not alone. There are other works that collaborate his as well. Here's another.

Aboriginal Monuments of the State of New York, by E.G. Squier which document many fortifications, mass graves and weapons found throughout the region. He also documents hundreds of ancient trench and timber reinforced fortifications in the region, that even in his day had been obliterated by the forest and plow.

[Joseph Antley]

Interesting. Are you claiming that Orsamus wrote a fictional history book based on some conversation he may have had with Joseph Smith or others? He certainly wasn't a member of the Church.

No, I'm not claiming that. I'm suggesting that Turner reported common rumors and speculation in the region that he--and many others such as the Smith family--considered fact.

And no, the Holland Purchase work doesn't mention Joseph Smith, it's about the Holland Purchase.

You're right. It was his History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase in which, although about the settlement of Phelps and Gorham's purchase, Turner mentions his recollections of Joseph Smith.

There's a reason there was a prevailing belief about this advanced ancient civilization being exterminated. The evidence was all around them as they settled the area.

And then it mysterious disappeared? Despite their plowing and farming, we should still expect some remnant of these evidences to have survived if they were so numerous and obvious that even rural settlers knew how to interpret them.

You can throw Orsamus out if you want to, not me. He was not alone. There are other works that collaborate his as well. Here's another.

Aboriginal Monuments of the State of New York, by E.G. Squier which document many fortifications, mass graves and weapons found throughout the region. He also documents hundreds of ancient trench and timber reinforced fortifications in the region, that even in his day had been obliterated by the forest and plow.

As I said, this was the common belief in the region. Unfortunately, most of these accounts are anecdotal, and early America's settlers were not archaeologists.

[Zakuska]

No, I'm not claiming that. I'm suggesting that Turner reported common rumors and speculation in the region that he--and many others such as the Smith family--considered fact.

You're right. It was his History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase in which, although about the settlement of Phelps and Gorham's purchase, Turner mentions his recollections of Joseph Smith.

And then it mysterious disappeared? Despite their plowing and farming, we should still expect some remnant of these evidences to have survived if they were so numerous and obvious that even rural settlers knew how to interpret them.

As I said, this was the common belief in the region. Unfortunately, most of these accounts are anecdotal, and early America's settlers were not archaeologists.

Like I said... "Will the Real Spalding manuscript please stand up!"

Its just more fuel to show Joseph Smith made the whole thing up.

PS. You have heard of the Michigan Relics haven't you?

http://en.wikipedia....Michigan_relics

http://www.michigans...gan_Relics.html

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Articles/Michigan_Relics.html

[Joseph Antley]

PS. You have heard of the Michigan Relics haven't you?

http://en.wikipedia....Michigan_relics

http://www.michigans...gan_Relics.html

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Articles/Michigan_Relics.html

According to Wikipedia, it was Elder James E. Talmage concluded that the Michigan relics were frauds (since corroborated by later scientists).

But perhaps these nineteenth-century frauds do have some relevance. They once again demonstrate a common belief in the early Republic that ancient America was inhabited by civilized peoples often believed to have been of Israelite descent.

[Uncle Dale]

...a popular believe in western New York during that period

...

...these fortifications were erected, as they pretend, by their ancestors... the Senecas...

they were erected by the ancestors of the improved nations of South America, in the progress

of their migrations from the north and north-west... Many support the opinion, that the

western states of the Union were the original country of the Mexicans and Toltecas. From a

comparison of the bodies and envelopes found in the Copperas cave in Tennessee, and from

other circumstances, the inference has been drawn that the western country was once their

seat; that they were a copper-coloured people, who, it has been supposed, owed their

knowledge and refinement to certain aboriginal whites. Three South American nations ascribe

their civilization and religion to three white men, who appeared among them. Abbe Molina says,

there is a tribe of Indians in Baroa, in Chili, whose complexions are a clear white...

An exterminating war appears to have taken place between the barbarous natives, perhaps

under some Attila or Genseric, and their more refined and civilized neighbours, ending

in nearly the total destruction of the latter, the few survivors of whom fled to happier

climes; and to these aboriginal whites perhaps the Mexicans, &c. were indebted for their

knowledge and refinement.

The traditions of other Indians ascribe the construction of these works to whites.

Indians north-west of Ohio and others say, that they had understood from their old men,

that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that the western country,

and particularly Ohio and Kentucky, had once been inhabited by white people, but they

were exterminated. The last battle was fought at the falls of Ohio. The Indians drove

the aborigines into a small island, (Sandy Island,) below the rapids, where the whole

were cut to pieces. Kentuckee, in Indian, signifies river of blood. Some of the remains

of the ancient tribe of the Sacs expressed to a gentleman at St. Louis, their

astonishment that any person should live in Kentucky. The country, they said, had been

the scene of much blood, and was filled with the manes of the butchered inhabitants

who were white people.

Numerous traditions of nations west of the Mississippi, though varying as to the

motive or uses that occasioned the construction of their tumuli and fortifications,

concur in their great antiquity, and most of them in their having been the work

of a people which had altogether ceased to exist, before those hunting grounds

came into possession of the ancestors of the present occupants.

But who were these whites? May it be presumed that the Alleghanians (Alligewi)

and Mexicans were the same people by intermixture, and that the former erected

these works before the Lenape and Iroquois came and destroyed them....

But if the Alleghanians may be thus identified with the Mexicans, who were the

whites that instructed the latter? Were the nations of our state descendants in

reality of those victorious Tartars, (if they may be so denominated,) who

formed their alliance on the banks of the Mississippi, waged the exterminating

war against the Alligewi, and succeeded in expelling them, according to the

tradition before recited? Were, then, those fugitives who escaped down the

Mississippi, and never returned, the white instructors of the Mexicans? And

if conjecture might be extended to the supposition that they were, still the

inquiry arises, who were these whites, these Alligewi, these instructors of

the Mexicans, these authors of our antiquities? Whence came they?

ancient fortifications... their origin... Oconostoto... a ruling chief of the

Cherokee nation... replied, it was handed down by their forefathers, that

these works were made by white people, who had formerly inhabited the country.

When the Cherokees lived in the country now South Carolina, wars existed

between them, and were only ended when the whites consented to abandon the

country. Accordingly, they descended the Tennesee to the Ohio, then to the

big river (Mississippi), then up the muddy river (Missouri), to a very great

distance. They are now on some of its branches, but are no longer white

people; they have become Indians, and look like the other red people of the

country. "I then asked him," continues Governor Sevier, "if he had ever

heard any of his ancestors say to what nation of people the whites belonged?

... Oconostoto also observed, that an old woman in his nation had some part

of an old book given her by an Indian living high up the Missouri...

...The address of Montezuma, the mighty emperor of Mexico, to his subjects,

(1520) that "our forefathers came from a far country, and their king and

captaine who brought them hither returned again to his natural country,

saying that he would send such as should rule and govern us, if by chance

he himself returned not," etc.; the vestiges of Christianity; the honour paid

to the cross in Acuzamil...

...this antipodal region to the south of lakes Ontario and Erie; and thereon

pursue the vestiges of their combats, their conflicts, and their untold story,

to Onondaga, the great head-quarters of the victorious Iroquois....

...Abbe Clavigero thought the first American people descended from different

families after the confusion of tongues, and that the language and customs

of the Asiatics will in vain be examined for the origin of the people of the

New World. It is his belief that there has been an equinoctial union of

America and Africa, as well as a former connexion at the north with Asia

and Europe.

Siquenza (whose opinion was adopted by Bishop Huet) supposed that the Mexicans

belonged to the posterity of Naphtalim, and that their ancestors left Egypt

not long after the confusion of tongues...

...The ruins of an ancient city near Palenque, in the province of Chiapa,

and kingdom of Guatemala, in Spanish America, are described as exhibiting

the remains of magnificent edifaces, temples, towers, aqueducts, statues,

hieroglyphics, and unknown characters.... According to Doctor Cabrera's

hypothesis, the figures and deities of the Palacian city, and particularly

the hieroglyphics, are Egyptian....

...These remains of art may be viewed as connecting links of a great chain,

which extends beyond the confines of our state (Bew York), and becomes more

magnificent and curious as we recede from the northern lakes, pass through

Ohio into the great vale of the Mississippi, thence to the Gulf of Mexico,

through Texas into New Mexico and South America. In this vast range of

more than three thousand miles, these monuments of ancient skill gradually

become more remarkable for their number, magnitude, and interesting variety,

until we are lost in admiration and astonishment...

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1824Yate.htm#pg042a

1824 ---- a book widely sold along the Erie Canal ----

and advertised in the 1824-27 newspapers, as being

for sale in towns very near Palmyra...

UD

.

[Zakuska]

According to Wikipedia, it was Elder James E. Talmage concluded that the Michigan relics were frauds (since corroborated by later scientists).

But perhaps these nineteenth-century frauds do have some relevance. They once again demonstrate a common belief in the early Republic that ancient America was inhabited by civilized peoples often believed to have been of Israelite descent.

While these particular relics may have been frauds... its hard too claim all the copper and iron tools and weapons found in the area were also fraudulent.

In 1953, A Late Old Copper Complex site (approximately 3000BP) was discovered in Algoma Township, Winnebago County, Wisconsin, on the south shore of Lake Butte des Mortes, on the farm of Matt Reigh. The Reigh Site, like the Oconto Site, was uncovered in part by commercial gravel operations. Burials of 43 individuals were uncovered along with copper artifacts identified as Old Copper Complex. Prior to the archeological investigation being undertaken, as with the earlier Oconto Site, an unknown number of burials had been destroyed by commercial gravel mining operations.

http://copperculture.homestead.com/

This is one thing I beleive the Great Lakes have an advantage over Meso America. Actual forged metal implements for BOM time periods.

[Uncle Dale]

...Actual forged metal implements for BOM time periods.

BKP might agree... but does DCP agree?

Uncle "We must get our priorities straight here, you realize." Dale

[Zakuska]

BKP might agree... but does DCP agree?

Uncle "We must get our priorities straight here, you realize." Dale

Maybe "Forged" is to stong a word. Metal tools which were heated and pounded into shape.

[Uncle Dale]

Maybe "Forged" is to strong a word...

Well, we know that the Michigan relics were forged counterfeits...

But the copper tools are real. Copper artifacts turn up in ancient

mounds all through the eastern half of North America.

BKP will surely agree.

DCP must at least agree that the copper comes from "Nephite" times.

Can these two men work out a compromise statement?

Something like -- "We bear testimony that the copper tools are just

like what Nephites would have produced -- said Nephites, then, as a

matter of course, having lived where those tools were made and hid up."

That might get those Maxwell Institute folks back on the guest list

for the next Q12 Christmas party, eh?

UD

[Zakuska]

Well, we know that the Michigan relics were forged counterfeits...

But the copper tools are real. Copper artifacts turn up in ancient

mounds all through the eastern half of North America.

BKP will surely agree.

DCP must at least agree that the copper comes from "Nephite" times.

Can these two men work out a compromise statement?

Something like -- "We bear testimony that the copper tools are just

like what Nephites would have produced -- said Nephites, then, as a

matter of course, having lived where those tools were made and hid up."

That might get those Maxwell Institute folks back on the guest list

for the next Q12 Christmas party, eh?

UD

These metal weapons do lend a great more credibility to a final Battle taking place in the great lakes area. That is why I often lean to a hemespherical model.

[Joseph Antley]

These metal weapons do lend a great more credibility to a final Battle taking place in the great lakes area. That is why I often lean to a hemespherical model.

How is the existence of metal weapons evidence for the final Nephite/Lamanite battle occurring in New York?